HOW THE WELL GOT SO DRY (Or, Why this rebuild
is going to take more than two seasons)
UPDATE - In Comments is my reaction at 11:00 am and 12:45 pm to yours and we will continue throughout the day. Please be mindful of the Guidelines so everyone has their say. Thanks…CB
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The Islanders currently have only two home-grown youngsters in their lineup considered to have the potential to become top forwards on a future contender. They, of course, are Kyle Okposo (first round, 2006) and Josh Bailey (first round, 2008).
Otherwise, as the Islanders enter Year 2 of their complete overhaul in 2009-2010, there should no confusion about the state of the organizational depth chart.
- There is not a single player on the current Bridgeport roster that will magically develop into a scoring forward or top-5 defenseman in next season’s Islanders lineup. (Our Sound Tigers top prospects list arrives later this week).
- There is not one top-9 forward or top-5 defenseman joining the Islanders’ opening night lineup next season directly from Europe or the college or junior ranks. That is, unless they sign an upstart European or collegiate (Matt Gilroy?) free agent.
- The season after that, and the season after that, the Islanders could have plenty of skilled players emerge from the AHL and elsewhere.
The wild card, naturally, is the Islanders’ first round pick in 2009, but it is pointless today to put an 18-year old’s name on the GM’s dry-erase board. Not with 30% of this season still remaining. Not with Scott Gordon still coaching an aggressive style, but lining up the left wing next to two defensemen in the neutral zone. Not with the Islanders subsequently winning more games lately than they did in December and January.
Why is the well so dry? More than any other reasons, look no further than a horrendous run of four consecutive first round picks.
2002 – Sean Bergenheim (22nd overall): Love the kid, but let’s be real. After yet another season of stops and starts and chipping away at the hairlines of his coaching staff, Bergenheim does not seem destined to be a front-line NHL forward. At least not with the Islanders.
2003 – Robert Nilsson (15th overall): First round tools, sixth round drive and determination now driving Craig MacTavish nuts in Edmonton after becoming an Oiler in the Ryan Smyth trade. In related news, J.P.’s kid scored his 33rd and 34th against the Islanders last night.
2004 – Petteri Nokelainen (16th overall): More than a year of knee tendinitis has hurt his career, projected by most teams to max out as a third-liner. This season, he has 0 goals as a fourth-line forward and sometimes healthy scratch with the dynamo Bruins.
2005 – Ryan O’Marra (15th overall): The miss of all misses. Garth Snow didn’t think twice about including him in the Smyth trade. Four years later, he is a grinder in Springfield (AHL), his career already on shaky ground.
That is an almost impossible-to-fathom string of failures by a scouting staff directed by former general manager Mike Milbury. Four consecutive first round picks, not even a second-line forward in the group 4-7 years later. Bergenheim and Nilsson could figure it out and have a love connection with their coaches down the road, but it’s getting late early.
We can waste a lot of space listing the dozens of players missed with these picks, but that would really be missing the point. All you need to know is that Milbury and company had four swings at the best hockey talent in the world in the first round four years in a row. They whiffed.
And from those four drafts between 2002-2005 they have a mere six players as possible pieces to the rebuild: Frans Nielsen, forgotten Jeremy Colliton, Bruno Gervais, Blake Comeau, Chris Campoli and Dustin Kohn. Of that group, only Nielsen (ceiling: No. 2 center) and Campoli (No. 4 dman) appear to have a chance to develop into more than just good soldiers.
This is why the painful art of scouting has beaten down good hockey men in every organization. It’s why there is turnover in the scouting community all over the league every year. This, in part, is why only Ryan Jankowski (now assistant GM) and Anders Kallur (a bird-dog in Europe who fought for Frans Nielsen) remain from the Islanders’ staff that was there for the quartet of stud-less first round picks. It’s why the Islanders in 2006 stepped up their investment in scouting resources and player development and revamped how they analyze draft prospects, and why the process needs to continue.
And this, more than anything else, is why the rebuild is going to take more than just this season and next. For perspective, Washington – with Alexander Ovechkin – took three years.
Comments. Guidelines.
150 Responses to HOW THE WELL GOT SO DRY (Or, Why this rebuild
is going to take more than two seasons)
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Rich says:
CB, So Matt Martin and Mark Katic will not be NHl ready for a rebuilding team next year. From our 2006 and 2007 drafts we don’t have one player that can play for this poor of a team. I understand it takes sometime for a player to develop but it seems like you are even less hopeful about the latest Isles propspects.
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cgs878 says:
Thanks CB. You paint a bleak picture, yet I appreciate the honesty. I wish that more people would “tell it like it is” instead of supplementing a story with fluff and wishlist items. The Islanders could always trade for another team’s prospects, couldn’t they?
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Isles Fanatic says:
CB,
Good points, as fans we cannot be fooled on the timrframe for such a massive overhaul. The importance of good drafting is magnified under a cap system as well. I feel that if they continue the path, we shall start to see solid results in year 4, with this year being year 1.
I just hope fans are patient enough to wait that long. Although in a few years, it might be alot of fun to see Okposo, and a few others grow into solid NHL’ers…
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isles316 says:
Just look at Chicago,LA and Pheonix. LA hasn’t made the playoffs in 7 years and just this season have a chance after starting an Isles like rebuild. Same in Chicago and Phoenix.
I think it will be the same for the Isles.
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UIF says:
Call me crazy, but I’m not as “doom and gloom”. And I hardly think of myself as an optimist when it comes to this team.
I think we have a good third line with Comeau/Bergy-Nielson-Hunter. I think our fourth line has more than enough players to choose three and be set there for a while (I’d go with Park-Colliton-Jackman). Second line we have Bailey and Okposo. What we’re lacking is true top-line talent, but our depth and character players are plentiful.
D is the same…some good options for 3-6…just need the stud.
I find that most teams that struggle for years do all they can to hold onto one or two superstars, and never have the depth or character players for years after that. The Isles are the opposite, imo. Put two true top-line forwards on this team, and one stud D, and it’s a different story. Stanley Cup? No. But (with a healthy DP, if that ever happens) solidly in the playoffs, I think. That’s three players. If they draft a stud D and sign a UFA center, or vice versa, that’s 2/3 of the problem.
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Joey303 says:
As the Metallica song would say “Sad But True” And yet, look at the anti-Isles Scouts, the Bruins, and see what a turnaround they have made. Chara doesnt hurt either. When you have the worst record in the NHL, and dont have any top prospects, that is a bleak picture. Maybe a banner draft this year, with all the early picks we already have, and the possibly of accumulating more, will help.
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If the Islanders and the Town of Hempstead / Nassau County “get it right,” then the Islanders should have a nice playoff run in a “new” (refurbished) NVMC with Lighthouse amenities all around. I’d like to see that happen! Git ‘er dun.
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Mike from Philly says:
Boy John Tavares would look nice next to Okposo!
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potvin05 says:
In regards to getting UFAs like Chara and the such you have to create a team where top-tier players want to come. Everybody likes the money that comes with a huge contract, but about 97 percent of the guys in the NHL want to win a Cup more than anything else. I do think after 2 more sub .500 seasons, we should have quite a nucleus and that’s when a guy like Chara or even a Hossa-type would want to come here. And, I hope Gordon is still the guy here when that happens. I think he will be.
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guerin13 says:
mad mike milbury – the gm that keeps on giving. his awful drafting is still hurting the isles. thankfully the isles take drafting a lot more seriously now. i agree with chris but i do think that trevor smith has a chance to be a good offensive player for us next year.
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cgs878: honestly, what is so bleak about what CB said? He made a point of how the Islanders scouting has improved. He also made a point that these mistakes were on a different mans watch. That isnt bleak IMO, its just the truth.
As far as the Islanders trading for another team’s prospects, sure they could… IF they wanted to give up their upcoming picks. I dont know if that is a great idea.
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C.J. says:
Wow… no love for Blake Comeau. I see this kid (if he can get his head on straight) evolving into a tough competitor with some skill and scoring touch. POSSIBLE 2nd line winger, but more likely, a very solid 3rd liner.
We need to hit a home run w/this year’s draft (and pull of some sound deadline deals — no Papineau’s please) and make a score of 2 on the UFA market (Komi to start please).
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Paul* says:
I just wish we could Put this Milbury Garbage behind us and Focus on Garth Snow! We all know where we have been! However looking forward is more important and Garth Snow needs to show his Worth with this rebuild stuff. Remember okposo was not a Snow pick and Snow only has Bailey and Striet to his resume which only Time will tell! We cant go through this rebuild stuff for another 4-5 years since we have been in reality rebuilding since 1993!!
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valentino says:
CB
I am glad to see someone set realistic expectations. To everyone else who reads this masterpiece of a blog, dont cry over spilled milk. We simply have to play the cards dealt to us. My only hope is that next year is just as bad as this one. We need to stock up on cant miss prospects.
Tavares or Bust.
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(#12 Chris TMC) – bleak meaning that they most likely won’t have a winning season until 2011-12, which will lead to less fans supporting the team and more losses for Mr. Wang & Company. I admit that I don’t follow the minor leagues, so I don’t know what’s “in the pipeline” of ECHL and AHL affiliates. It just sounds bleak to me, a layperson & not diehard fan.
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Paul* – you just spoke out of both sides of your mouth. How can we simultaneously not worry about the past regimes and complain that this rebuild had better be quick because the previous regimes had us in a rebuilding state practically since 1993? The point here was to calm down those thinking we’ll contend for a Cup next year because the team simply whiffed on far too many draft picks. While they may have had a great draft in 08 and solid ones in 06 and 07, the fact remains that solid first round picks from 2002-2005 would be on this team and contributing, thus putting the team a lot closer to contention.
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KP says:
I disagree with the ’02 draft being listed as a whiff. Bergenheim was never projected to be anything more than a third line grinder to begin with. I love the speed and energy he brings to the game, but don’t like the dumb penalties. He’s never been billed as a scorer or said to have hands of gold. He is what he is. A little fine tuning of his game and I think he’ll make a more than OK third liner. Look who was drafted in 02. It’s a very weak class, only Jared Stoll could you have made a case for getting in ’02 when you’re looking the rear view mirror.
’03 was a big strikeout, no doubt about it, and forget the Nilsson-Parise debate. In the first round, the Isles passed on Parise or Getzlaf or Perry. In the second round, they wasted two picks on two Russian duds, and one of those picks could’ve been used on Shea Weber. Those types of Dman don’t grow on trees.
’04 and ’05 show what kinda crap shoots the draft really are.
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Darren says:
It’s amazing that we are still feeling the wrath of Milbury!
It’s also amazing that he has job in hockey anywhere!! -
I don’t know…are playoffs really such an unrealistic goal for two seasons from now? Most of the SE Division is dead in the water, the NE Division has some good, but not unbeatable teams aside from Boston, and two of the top teams in the Atlantic are going to be in serious cap trouble very soon…who knows how that plays out.
I’m not saying it’s all sunshine and roses here, but come on…Florida is a legit playoff contender this year. Are we THAT worse off than they are? With some steady progression next year, and then further progression the year after, I don’t think playoffs are out of reach at all. If we were in the West, that’d be a different story.
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I was at the Bridgeport game last night and a season ticket holder, and that Jesse Joensuu looks like quite a prospect. Maybe not next year. But he looks like he could pan out as a solid 2nd liner in 10-11
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Brian G says:
This is Why we need to trade the veteran players for as many draft picks and A to B level prospects as possible. That’s why if someone offers a 2nd round pick for Richard Park we probably should make that trade b/c this franchise needs many chances (picks) to get quality players…at this point no quality free agent will be signing with this team for a few years until the organization is more built up.
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art says:
The isles can’t win. they have picked small over the years and ended up with a team that gets pushed around. then shocked by the result pass on little PARISE enough said.
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We have no Depth at any position in this organization.
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Brian (post 24), unfortunately you’re spot on. Thus, we won’t know GMG’s draft thoughts until the very moment he approaches the podium. Easily going to be the biggest decision of his young GM tenyar.
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Matt Scordato says:
CB…while myself and many Islnder fans would like to pin this horrendous drafting record on Milbury and ultimately it lands on his doorstep, but prior to 2002, the Islanders had some pretty good drafts and I think alot of this can be attributed to the departure of Gordie Clarke, who (correct me if I’m wrong) left the organization after a tiff with ownership. Gordie is now running the scouting over at MSG.
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Jax says:
Not ready to label Bergy a 3rd or 4th line guy. he showes flashes of offense. He is still only 24? I think he could be a 2nd line guy if he matures.
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Dmarie says:
I tend to agree that we wont see much happen with this team for a season or two.
It’s frustrating for fans, but these guys seem to be left with some of Milbury’s mistakes/choices, and apparently it’s not easy to undo.
Wangs busy or focusing on trying to make deals with where the team will even be playing, he’s already got his eyes set on other places.
We need more guys to go out there an play like they’re hungry for it, instead we have guys to busy concentrating on skating faster an keeping up, honestly (imo) I think we need new couhing, I’m sorry but gordon’s way? may be good for some but I feel like all it’s doin for us is getting us no where except injured players.
And yes I know injuries are part of a contact sport..I’m well aware of that, however? look at the year we’re having..a bit much, every time we turn around another player out with hip issues.
I hope Garth an Gordon can clean up this mess. -
Candyman says:
I think CB is missing the point here. It’s hard to find talent in the middle/late stages of the first round–at least talent that is surefire NHL front-end talent. Except for the Parise example, it’s not like the Isles missed out on some big players (like Chyzowski over Lidstrom, Scissions over Brodeur, Lachance over Forsberg, etc. from ’89-’91). A lot of what happens in the later rounds is a crap shoot.
The real talent is in the top 10 and that’s where you have to draft wisely. Sadly, the Isles did that in the late 90′s (Brewer, Luongo, most likely Spezza), but traded that talent away when impatience took over. Okposo and Bailey look ok, but they are far from surefire NHL front-end players at this point. Hopefully, this year we can draft the type of player to build our future around.
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As much as I like what Park brings to the table, you’re not getting a second for him. You could prob. get a low 1st or 2nd for a Witt (Devils or Caps) or a Guerin (Boston or Edm.). That being said, I would still trade Park regardless. Quite frankly, I would trade anybody over the age of 26, Hunter withstanding, for ANY pick, no matter the round. Right now you can’t count on any player outside the organaztion (Komi) you can only build from within, and Botta is right, it’s going to take two seasons, IMO, to attract any big-time players to come here. I think despite having no star-type organizational players, we have a nice concrete foundation to build on, and with the 10 plus picks we should have in June (5 or 6 in the first two rounds) we will have incredible depth here in two years.
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Plus, you have to bring up the Milbury years because that’s a big reason why we’re in the position we’re in right now.
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I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but I agree with UIF. Depending on where we finish, we are going to get either Tavares or Hedman. From there, you try and sign what we didn’t get, either a Top center or top dman. Easier said than done, I know, but not out of the realm of possibility. I think the FA market will shore up our D this offseason. Streit, Marty, hopefully Komo, Campoli/Gervais/Meyer, possibly Witt, Gilroy, Scuderi (my other UFA pick up.)
From there we go for forwards, try to keep some money for the following year and either Draft or trade for 1 or 2 top wings. (again, easier said than done) -
I think the bigger problem is guys that our defense is pretty weak. Besides Streit, there is not one defensemen that is better than average. If you want to make the case that Martinek is better than average I’ll go there but he can’t stay on the ice for more than 55-60 games. They all get pushed around. I think that is what is going to take the longest to fix.
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Matt (#26) I don’t know about Gordie Clark, but Tony Feltrin had a pretty good eye for talent. Don’t know where he’s working these days, but I’m surprised I don’t hear his name around the Isles organization.
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bcarroll25 says:
if bergie can play smarter his upside is that of a better hilbert.both can skate and have questionable hands, bergie’s stronger and more physical,hilbert shows more hockey sense.
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mrlbem says:
Didn’t there come a point in time several years ago where the Islanders made a decision to decrease or dimminish their reliance on amateur scouting? I can still recall Milbury making a statement about how it (amateur scouting) was not as important as it used to be. Were those 4 drafts the result of that policy? And did that directive come from Milbury or from Wang as a means of cost cutting?
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Islanders1984 says:
If the staff would actually let bergy play he could surprise allot of us with his talents. After all Scotty Bowman, whose detroit redwings did/do nothing but draft the right players, Said Bergenheim was something special. Isles better not blow it with this kid. Give him actual minutes
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LexHair says:
Thank goodness for Ryan Jankowski. After all, he scouted Europe for MM when they drafted Bergie, Nilsson and Nokie. Great job! He certainly deserves to be retained and promoted. He’ll get this fixed.
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Mikey says:
CB – thanks for trying to keep us grounded in reality. Next season could be another painful year for us, but we have to stay patient and wait for the 08 and 09 draft picks to develop. We also need to give Smith and Joensuu the proper amount of seasoning at the Bridge.
I am a little disappointed in some of the Bergenheim bashing. He was never projected to be a first-line player, so why are we holding him to those expectations. The kid is fearless and has speed to burn. He takes a lot of penalties, but nobody ever mentions that he draws a lot of penalties as well. I will be happy if he becomes a consistent 15G 15A guy who can bang bodies and play on the pk. We can’t give up on the guy – he hasn’t even played 2 full seasons in the league.
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rb says:
J.P. Parise…last night I was watching Youtube highlights from 1972 Canada-Russia Summit Series…I had forgotten that it was Jeep who almost took an overhead two-hander with his stick to the substitute ref the Russians installed in the deciding Game 8, who immediately gave 3 PPs to the Russians in the opening minutes (look it up, it’s wild)…not all sons of goood players equal their father’s success, but the thing that always grates with passing on Zach was that his legacy from Jeep was real character and game-toughness (not punching)
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bystander says:
the drafting and draft related moves were horribly inept and shortsighted, to be kind, but that’s been obvious for a long time. meanwhile, and i know this must have been covered but i haven’t read today, okposo’s goal last night may have been a seminal moment. like a switch was turned on and he was literally driven by an impulse that told him “damn it, i’m as good as anyone out here and i’m gonna do this.” and he did. it was a true power forward move and an eye opener for the league. as an aside, i heard the devils radio post-game and laughlin/ross claimed (to paraphrase) “give SOME credit to okposo but it was more a mistake by oduya.” nonsense.
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Westchester Isle fan says:
Scott Scissons
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admin says:
First run of my reaction to your Comments, then will check back later in the afternoon.
Lexhair (39): Huge difference between scouting a region and running the draft. Since I was there, trust me. And as point of fact, Jankowski was only in Europe for Nokelainen.
KP (34): Tony Feltrin ran the drafts the four years I wrote about.
Derek (32): Boy, you made that sound easy! The NYI need to come last overall to guarantee getting Tavares or Hedman, so you have a way to go.
Candyman (29): Only really missed on Parise those four years? Hard to find talent in middle of first round? Four years in a row? You might want to look it up.
Brian G (22): I believe your assessment is pretty bang-on.
Ray (21): You are right about Joensuu. This story discussed NHL-ready front-line players for next season. He could be in two years. Could be.
cgs878: I don’t think it’s bleak, just realistic. Improvement next season and playoffs year after next are possibilities. I’m writing about being a contender, which I would think is the only goal.
CJ (13): Who has loved Comeau more than me? (That didn’t come out right). He’s a good player I feel I have fairly labeled. He is not a top-line talent. Shoot, even Blake might tell you that.
UIF (6): I love ya, but the parts about “all we’re missing is a number one line” and “all we need is the stud dman” kinda was the point of my story, not doom and gloom.
Thanks for all the Comments in the time it took me to down two corn muffins…CB
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Bob Bassen says:
I agree that beyond the consensus Top 10, the draft is a *crap-shoot*. With the Salary Cap, teams can become a contender much quicker,
At least with current line-ups you more or less know what you’re getting. I like Park and Hilbert. There I said it. Between injuries and the idiosynchrasies of a *re-build*, the Colliton’s of the World will get their chance. I just think several of the *vet’s* are worth keeping. -
All I know is if we avoid the quick fixes and stick to the plan Snow seems to have, focus on building from within and through the draft, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it’s gets brighter on a weekly basis. Avoid any UFAs over 26 years old and trade no young guys unless you’re getting younger in the process. Call me naive, but this is the happiest I’ve been about this team in about 3 or 4 years now.
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If you’re still around, CB, any words on Petrov at all?
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Scott W says:
I have to agree with the posts bashing Milbury. It is amazing to this day what he has done to this organization. His decisions have basically ruined this organization. We are still picking up the pieces and fixing it today. To add insult, I have to watch this guy between periods on the NBC telecasts give his analysis.
CB..Whats your take on the Milbury era?
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Josh says:
I wouldn’t write off Bergenheim quite yet. I’d give him one more season to put it all together. He has good hands, good speed, and can play physically. I just wouldn’t want to get rid of him at this point, writing him off as a third liner. I think you run the risk of having him become a Jason Blake somewhere else.
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Wait, CB, are you telling me this isn’t like an EA game? D’Oh!!
My point was not necessarily that we should go out and try to sign Hossa, that’s the easier said than done part, but I think there are players available either by trade or FA that can help this team make the playoffs by next year and that also fit “the plan.”
Maybe I’m just too optimistic, but I can see it being done. -
in 1972 and 1973, while already rabid and impatient islander fans were furious about 6 and 7 game losing streaks, bill torrey made sure people knew that “the team you see now is not the new york islanders.” his point was that other than billy harris and billy smith and 1 or 2 others, you won’t start to see the real new york islanders for another couple of years. it’s same today. what we’re looking at now – all but a couple or few of these players – will be the jim mairs and arnie browns of their day.
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I don’t know what the policy here is on posting youtube videos, but KO’s goal from last night was nothing short of beautiful. He undresses the d-man and shows incredible puck control on his way through the crease. The kid has 30-35 goals a season written all over him.
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jonsson3 says:
I know we’re in last place and all but we’ve lost our goalie all year, and if you look at the losses, alot by 1 goal or 2goals w/1 being an empty netter. Trade some of the dead wood(comrie witt guerin gervais) sign a couple of free agents, #1 or 2 pick in the draft, and i think we can compete for a playoff spot next year. With the kids only getting better we are a few years away from contending for the cup! Hockey is constantly changing. Look at Pittsburgh. Who would have said they were not going to the playoffs this year( so far).
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Dank516 says:
I remember when Bergenheim coulnt get to the net unless it was some kind of crash and bang involved…but now he’s is getting through defensmen and sniping out goalies. Give him some time to grow. Otherwise CB, your article was a very good read
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CB, no problem. I wouldn’t have made the assertions I made without researching my position beforehand. So here you go…
1. Bergenheim year – the only 1st rounder chosen after Bergie of any real relevance was Alexander Steen. A guy who wasn’t good enough to stick with Toronto and a mediocre center at best. But hey, at least he’s in the NHL unlike many of the other players chosen after Bergie in round 1.
2. Nokie year – the only 1st rounder chosen after Nokie of any real relevance was Wojtek Wolski. Probably could be a 20 goal scorer year to year, but definitely was not a super talented surefire NHL’er. And he still isn’t today.
3. O’marra year – the only 1st rounder chosen after O’marra of any real relevance was Andrew Cogliano. He has some real potential, but there were 15 picks after O’marra and he’s the only one with more than 8 NHL goals.
Again, you made those years out to be blown by MM’s staff by missing out on players they should have taken in round 1. In reality, the real talent from 02-05 was not in the first round but in later rounds like a Paul Stasny or a Johan Franzen. But even those guys were passed upon by their own teams in the first round. And this supports my “crap-shoot theory.”
We love guys like Martinek and Campoli, but we can’t kid ourselves into believing we new they would be solid NHL defenseman, or we wouldn’t have waited till the 7th rounds to draft guys like that. We got lucky with those guys, other teams get lucky with other guys, drafting is not an exact science. Except when you make a boneheaded move like drafting Nillson over Parise or Dipietro over Heatley.
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What do you think about the Isles using an early second rounder on Patty Roy’s Kid? From what i’ve seen they believe he will be a second rounder and we need some goaltending depth. And can you explain the mentality that we never utilized Stephen Valiquette when he was here? When he did play for us he was very solid each appearance. Thanks CB.
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Eric says:
Paul #14, it is absolutely not true that they have been rebuilding since 1993. They started the rebuild oh I dont know about 1996 and drafted extrememely well. no one told Milbury to trade the best prospects in the league! The islanders were not rebuilding for the first part of this decade either. Making a terrible trade for yashin and giving him 10 years, plus a good trade for peca, signing Aucoin, Osgood, Snow was not rebuilding. It was a short term answer. Now this is a TRUE rebuild, trying to find a long term answer. Im just really tired of this “the islanders have been rebuilding since 1993″ crap that I always hear. It is simply not true. They had a great rebuild and Milbury Fcked it up!
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Will C,
Was Patty Roy’s kid the same one who got all crazed and started a brawl in a junior game? I remember a story about him roughly two years ago. If so, bring him on!
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32 losses…23 by one goal/ENgoal 9 by 2 or more and 6 OT losses. DP probably wins a bunch of those games(5-6). We’re not that far off from a winning team!!!
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not to mention a million other injuries
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Jon says:
This post just reminded me why i HATE Mike Milbury so much.
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CB – If that was your point, then I guess we agree
What I was trying to get across I guess is that we need not be a last place team (or close to it) for several years straight like LA was, or even Washington. I think we have the support pieces in place where a few savvy GM moves could have us fighting for relevance next year, and into maybe the 6 or 7 spot the year after. Not a Stanley Cup, of course, but I’d take a playoff year two seasons from now.
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I know I put LA in an earlier post as a team that was awful for a long time and is now seeing the benefits. They have had some awful injury problems/goaltending problems in the last 5 years which have slowed them down.
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Great article Chris, on Milbury, always thought he was a very questionable choice for the NY Islander’s, after Boston’s loses in 1980, and 1982, teams Milbury were on, he became an Islander’s hater. I believe alot of his rediculous trades and draft picks were pay backs. As for todays team, I have to disagree with you Chris, I believe there more talent than you have mentioned, speaking purely on the current team, I believe the following will blossum, Colliton, Thompson, Jackman, Gervais, Comeau, Smith, Bergenheim, Bailey, Nielsen, Campoli, and Kyle Okposo. Others that will be on next years team will be Park, Hunter, and Mark Streit. Thanks Chris, Mark
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randy boyd says:
I’m sure that we all agree, Milbury should be strung up by his balls and beaten with a shoe. What concerns me more, however, is what role Jankowski had in those drafts? If it was anything significant, why is he now running the show? Can you shed some light on this, CB?
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Jethro09 says:
The cupboard is barren! God is it depressing to see the list of failures that Milbury is responsible for. I love Bergy, but he’s a fourth liner, a third-liner in a good season. That’s why the ’09 draft is so critical for the Islanders. They need to draft impact kids with tremendous levels of skill. This team does not need any more “depth players”.
Given the team’s salary cap situation going into next year, I think they should go hard after Gilroy and that other kid (Bozak?). Blow them away with offers so you add two more skilled players to the rebuild on top of the ’09 draft class.
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Tom says:
I think most of us can agree Milbury made less than stellar decisions that certaintly had lastly effets on the org.
Can you discuss what role the owner of the Islanders played in this years 30th place finish? I know Charles is extremely introverted & doesn’t speak publicly. But shouldn’t the owner be held even MORE accountable than the GM? Certainly at least just as accountable.
Where does Charles fit in when discussing why his team stinks?
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AM says:
Candyman – The Nokie year also included Zajac, Meszaros, and a defenseman named Mike Green, who is pretty good. The O’marra year had Hanzal, Oshie and Cogliano who are all contributing in the NHL and look to have good upside.
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Marc from Troy says:
CB… I was probably gonna ask you for this, anyway, and since Candyman (55) and I seem to be thinking alike here, I will: In YOUR opinion, which of the remaining 1st rounders should the Isles have selected in ’02, ’04, and ’05 (with ’03 a no brainer)? I’ll actually go further and let you pick from 2nd round selections, too. I am certainly not defending the Milbury regime, and the Nilsson/Parise misfire is so obvious it’s physically painful, but I think Candyman makes some very good points about those other years.
So, gun to your head, who should the Isles have picked in those years?
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And, CB, I agree that it’s wasted space to list “dozens” – pick just one name from each year.
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Gregg says:
Here is another opportunity for me to make the anti-rebuild point again. First of all rebuilding can take many years, sometimes 5 or 7 years. Then there’s no guarantee that the players you chose are going to amount to anything. Looks like you just wasted 5 to 7 years. This is why we have a salary cap. So all teams can compete and atleast be close to making the playoffs in March. No more rebuilding! Just make trades, sign free agents and mix them with the your decent farm-raised players. Rebuilding is such an old school 20th century concept.
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Tom (67): Its hard for Isles’ fans to blame Charles Wang for anything, considering that he has been more than willing to throw his cash around to make the team and building better and considering that the team probably wouldn’t be here right now if it weren’t for him. He also was a hockey idiot when he bought the team and trusted his staff of professionals to do things properly. Those “professionals” (see Milbury) didn’t do the job.
I think that the only fair criticism of Charles Wang is that he stuck with Milbury too long and that he tried that “committee” nonsense after Milbury was let go. I know everyone wants to point to the Neil Smith firing, and that was a fiasco, but the truth is, nobody has touched Neil Smith since he was let go and he didn’t have a job for 7 years before the Isles fired him for a reason.
I think Charles Wang bears some responsibility, but when you’re an owner you hire staff to run the team and trust that they will do their jobs. All the owner is there to do is make sure the staff have the resources to do their jobs, which Wang has done. It was Milbury and his staff’s job to run the team and build a winner and they failed.
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CB is pointing out a few particularly bad MM drafts- no argument here- but there were some fine draft choices before that. Isles fans complain about what a horrible drafter he always was, and then in the next breath lament all the top-tier talent the Islesdrafted and didnt keep. Remember?
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BrassBonanza says:
#59 your right on the money. I don’t think this rebuilding process is going to be as dreadful as a majority of fans think. This season is in no way indicative of how this team is going to perform next year or the year following. This club has played the entire season without their best player; which I think a lot of people tend to overlook. Yes, its going to be fantastic getting a top 5 draft pick, but not nearly as fantastic as returning a perennial All-Star goalkeeper to the lineup. I’m not saying Ricky is going to magically turn this team into a cup contender, but if healthy (yes my fingers are crossed too) I don’t think it’s out of line to think Ricky can have this team at least battling for a playoff berth.
CB, loved the piece on Spano!!!! I’m cool with Giamatti playing Mr. Spano, but who plays Mad Mike??? -
I’ve tried to keep a level head all season, and take joy in the little things of watching the kids develop. Big-picture looks like this are like an SNL “Daily Affirmation.” Necessary reminders.
If drafting continues like the past 2 years and more smart UFAs like Streit fill the gaps, we’ll look back on this time and smile from the perch of a shiny new arena. Gotta endure the journey first; gotta try to find joy in the process.
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AM, right, there were a few ok selections and you’re right I missed Mike Green he was like the last pick of the 1R (I was only looking at offensive production for some reason) but that was not a clear mishap by MM. Green worked out for the Caps, but a lot of teams passed on him as well.
So I guess the question turns to:
A. Did the Caps simply know something all other 29 NHL teams didn’t? or
B. Did the Caps simply get lucky there?I’ll go with B.
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Chris TMC (73): the fact that he traded away good talent is further evidence of his incompetence. And lets not rush to annoint Milbury as a great talent evaluator based on his late 90′s drafts. Each year, he had a top five pick. Anybody could have picked good talent with those drafts. His stupidity and impatience led to the good players he did draft getting moved far to soon for far too little in return.
And lets not forget Milbury’s 99 draft. Four picks in the first round. One decent player (Connolly at #5), two journeymen (Pyatt at #8, Mezei and #10) and one guy who’s out of hockey (Kudroc). Not exactly stellar. And Mike Rupp at #8 in ’98 wasn’t exactly a great pick either. It took him 8 years to get to the NHL and when he did, he did it as an third-line mucker.
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RobsIsles says:
I think Bergy has alot of untapped potntial. Maybe if Gordon gave him a little more time on the ice he would develop. Maybe if he was a Gordon Pet like Hilbert he would see more ice time. The kid hustles and gives an honest effort, alot more than you can say for some others on the team. Does take bad penalties, but they will change with time. Only a kid, not a superstar but definitely someone who can help the rebuilding process. Give him some more ice time and you will see the rewards.
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Jethro09 (77), but that “third-line mucker” (Rupp) also scored the GWG in the 7th game of the Stanley Cup finals. A terrible pick no doubt, but that’s still pretty damn cool.
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matt c says:
any chance isles draft a goalie this year?
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Jethro9 I agree with you, but at the same time the “buck” stops at Wang. Many owners take responsibility for their teams performance, especially the ones who are as hands-on as Charles.
Charles has done everything; but succeed. He said on the day he hired Neil Smith, “My team, my way”. His way has produced failure, perhaps hiring a Team President to oversee hockey ops is in order? Charles needs to answer for 30th place. IF the Isles were in 1st place, would he still be a hermit OR would he be in frequent interviews telling everyone how wonderful he is?
When I assess the Isles I look at the wins & losses column. Then I look to who is most responsible. Charles is not only THE top guy, he’s also been with the Isles the longest. Nobody knows why the Isles stink more than Charles Wang. But Wang is a mute & doesn’t answer questions. Answering hockey related questions is beneath me. I respect that. I just hope he respects the fact that going to Islander games is beneath me.
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DerFerret says:
So do we blame Milbury who drafted much better before 2000 or do we blame the scouts who left the team or the owner who wants to make a big statement in his dealings? (the one who squeezed DP’s cheeks in photos while Milbury looked like he got shot after Kumar’s announcement)
The past four owners have done more to raze this team into the rubble. THEY kept Milbury, THEY fired Smith, THEY hired a backup goalie and THEY wanted impact guys like Yashin and Peca to announce their arrival.
We did go from drafting Luongo and the Redwood defense and some nice prospects to drafting like boobs with the last ownership change mysteriously.
The scouts have failed us and left and the blame does not leave the GM…….or does it?
Lemme ask Neil Smith what not cooperating in this organization gets you?
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Tom, in a way he did answer your questions and concerns. He took a big step aside and is now letting the hockey people like Garth Snow do their thing without his interference for the first time. In order to reassess everything, you need to give it a few years.
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Candyman: Your argument is well-stated and very fair. Now let me poke some holes in it. It’s way too black-and-white to hold up only the rest of the first rounds as your argument.
An example. For the upcoming draft, you’re going to have about 8-10 kids that just about all of the 30 teams agree on with the top 10 picks. After that, you will have as many as 60 draft prospects that at least one team will have ranked between 10-30.
And facing the Marc from Troy challenge, I can think of these kids the NYI could have from 03 alone: Parise, Getzlaf, Richards, Corey Perry, Bergeron. A pair of stud D went in the second round.
My recollection is the 02 draft was definitely weak, I’ll give you that. In 04 the Islanders could have had Zajac, Wolski, Meszaros and Mike Green.
05 may still be early to tell, although not premature to say O’Marra was a mistake. Would not draw the line at Cogliano just yet. And proving my point about the length of team’s draft boards, I bet you Paul Stastny, taken with Colorado’s first pick (44th overall) was in the top 15 on the Lanche’s list.
And one more thing: it is the job of the GM and his scouting staff to get it right the first time, at least some of the time. They are the professionals, not the fans and media who point out all the players they missed. I crack up when a GM of any sports team says, “You can’t kill me for that. All of the fans and reporters loved that move”! Not our problem.
I’ll have more on the other questions later in the afternoon…CB
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JPinVA says:
I’d have to agree with Candy here. Drafting 18 year old kids into the NHL is like throwing darts. Don’t forget the fact that we gave up a lot for Yashin and Peca. Guys who are in their prime now.
The DP fiasco is still the bone crusher though.
But… more to the point… the rebuild needs to be done with one facter this team hasn’t had in 15 years.
CONTINUITY…and that starts behind the bench. I was definitely not on board with the blind leading the blind philosophy, but Gordon is beginning to give me hope, but the 50-25 shot games are not doing anybody any good. the team does not play physical hockey under Gordon and they do not play well in their own zone. You put any level of talent in that situation and it’s gonna be a long haul.
Oddly enough, the two guys I would like to see as a core fo this team based on their style of play, KO and Bergie, are seen as two totally different players.
Sure, KO may have more talent and may be more advanced than bergie as a scorer, but why does everybody want to throw bergie under the bus.
I’d like to know a little more about the headaches he’s causing. too much hustle? Too physical… does he want to win too much? I just don’t see it… Just as a casual observer, if you gave me three Kyle’s, three Bergie’s and even OUR D-corp(Healthy) and I think that’s a team that’s in the playoff conversation. -
OhNoItsComeau57 says:
Candyman I have to disagree with your assessment on a number of levels. You can make the argument that come the middle to end of the first round it is a bit of a toss up and that each teams draft board is different so I think you need to at least pay attention to the next 20-30 guys picked.
2002
You mention steen as the only player of note. How about the next guy picked: cam Ward. guy won a Conn Smythe. Scanning the first half of the 2nd round you have Jarrett Stoll, Trevor Daley, Josh Harding and Matt Greene, all pretty decent players
2004
Here you must not have even looked at the draft results to call only Wolski of note. How about Zajac, Meszaros, Cory Schneider, Jeff Schultz and Mike Green all of whom are either very good players down to high level prospects with schultz being a servicable stay at home type.
2005
Again, only Cogs? 2005 is still a little to soon to judge but as prospects how about: Martin Hanzal, Ryan Parent, Tukka Rask, Matt Lashoff, Nicklas Bergfors, TJ Oshie, Matt Niskanen and then in the first 5 picks of round 2 James Neal of Dallas and M-E Vlasic of SJ. The book is still out on these guys but they are all much MUCH more well regarded than O’Marra. (not to mention i was screaming at the tv to trade up for Stall or Kopitar since atlanta seemed content on picking chubby alex bourret by dropping down)
I dont want to be harsh but if you do the research it is right there. It isnt like everyone else missed as well
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CB beat me 2 it =P
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Adam M says:
CB,
With the first round busts you mentioned aside, don’t you think we’re in pretty good standing with Bailey, Nielsen, and especially Okposo as our young core? Can we at this point begin to ADD some guys to what we already have? I would imagine we have to to be competative next year.With the addition of Tavares/Duchene/or Hedman, it seems to me like we’re not in as bad of shape as we once were.
P.S. Thank goodness Okposo is coming through.
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Tom (81): I definitely agree and think that Wang should have hired a president of hockey operations the day he bought the team. Someone with lots of clout, like a Brian Burke. But he didn’t and that’s why I think he stuck with Milbury for so long.
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CB: What are your thoughts on the All-Star defenseman Andrew MacDonald playing for the Soundtigers?? How would you compare him to Gilroy??
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I dont see why WANG doesnt throw serious money at someone to step in as PREZ of hockey operations NOW.
I mean, wouldnt you want to protect your investment????
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Isles316 (83) ok so the first 9 years are “throw away’ years, we won’t worry about those. Right? In a way Charles HASN’T answered me. 3 years ago the Isles hired a nobody, a mediocre back-up goaltender who had ZERO qualifications to be anything BUT a back-up goaltender. THREE YEARS after that, the Isles are in 30th place.
Sorry no dice. Charles needs answer for this debacle. “Getting out of the way” so some neophyte back-up goaltender can take 3 years to construct garbage, just isn’t my idea of an “answer”. IF that truly is Charles answer, than let him crawl out from under the curtain & have him state that publicly.
As a fan I’m not going to take what you say as a difinitive answer on what Charles Wang has been doing for 9 years. That’s no offense against you at all, it’s just that your not Charles Wang, you didn’t build this mess.
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Fair enough Tom but Snow didn’t build this either. He took what he had and gave it go and got the team in the playoffs two seasons ago and had a respectable season last year.
In saying that, how many times did we need to watch the Isles sign 6 B level free agents each offseason in hopes to squeak into the playoffs?
Snow has now started over to try to build a winner.
If you want to go back 9 years, then ok. Not too many teams can say they made the playoffs in 4 out of 6 years in the last decade so it hasn’t been THAT awful as you say in the Wang era.
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In candy’s defense, and I won’t put words in his mouth… so IMHO… YES, the Isles may have dropped the ball on most of those picks, but they were not the only teams not to see the talent they passed up on.
EX: 2004, Nokie. First of all, when he came up the first time we (well, maybe “we”, but me for sure) said, “Wow, this is a kid with some skills that likes to play a physical game… this kid is gonna be a good one”
The next pick that has turned into anything is Zajak. Passed up by STL, MON, NYR… and then he goes to the team with the best developmental system in hockey.
DUH. The same can be said for Wolski and green. In that time we drafted kids and had really no development plan. We had now continuity in the NHL and certainly none in the AHL. Blame it on the draft… It’s definitely a factor. But the whole system needed to be blown up and started fresh.
I like the idea of having kids learn the NHL system in the AHL, but I’m not so sure about “the system” itself…. The truth of the matter is that 40 games into the season it had to be “tweaked”, and is still in dire need of reform. Don’t blame THAT on a lack of talent.
Biggest miss in my opinion… is not drafting Parise, but not luring his coach away to be part of something he was a big part of as a player. that’s why the devils get better and better and we are talking about 2012. -
Blocknessmonster says:
I rarely participate and I am usually a lurker.
CB – What ever happened to Igor Volkov? What was/is his story?
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Re: Post 95 by JPinVA and not luring Sutter to the Island. CB, is there any more to the story that he wasn’t yet ready to leave Red Deer when Wang sought him out? He sure had no problem deciding to come to the Devils.
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Ryan says:
The fact is that Gordon’s system paid enormous dividends in the AHL, not only offensively but defensively. Last year, the P-Bruins led the league in limiting shots against. That doesn’t happen by accident, and a team that committed fully to the trap at the beginning of ’06-’07 wouldn’t have let their farm team play a run-and-gun game that let up offensive chances by the bundle. In fact, you can look at the Boston Bruins and see how Julien has taken elements from Gordon’s system that you don’t usually see in a neutral zone trap, especially the freedom the right-wing forecheck has to challenge the puck carrier north of the offensive blue line.
The “tweaking” Gordon did was basically to put in a modified left wing lock to limit the odd-man rushes. Part of the reason that’s necessary is because we just don’t have the speed yet to compensate for the pinching defensemen. It’s not ideal because it’s hurt the offense’s ability to capitalize on turnovers. You saw that last night when the offense, especially the Bailey and Park lines, were stripping the Devils’ D of the puck in the left circle and not getting the support they needed to re-establish a cycle.
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Johnny Islander says:
There is no way I can write what I want to say on this subject in 100 words or less. So to sum up the major points…
The “rebuild” is going to take a few years…no kidding
Does that mean that we should be bottom feeders for 3-4 years? – Absolutely NOT
It seems like people want to keep expectations of this franchise low, but I don’t think the fans should expect anything less that a .500 (or very close) record next year and seriously competing for a playoff spot the next. That is when the fruits of the “rebuild” should really start to blossom and the next step from there is consistantly securing playoff spots and winning playoff series.
Add DP, and players with equal skill level to our glass versions of NHL players, and we’d be already be a lot closer to .500 then we would be to the #1 pick in the draft. If that were the case, people would be alot more optimistic about the near future, and not necessarily calling for a fire sale of vets for 2nd rounders or worse.
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JayK says:
Islanders1984 (#38): Yeah, Scotty Bowman made that comment about Bergenheim. Of course, he made it about four years ago. I still remember Joe Micheletti talking about it, so that should show you how old it is.
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Jamerson says:
CB, picking up on a comment by JPinVA (94), when evaluating draft picks, how much of a role does player development play? In other words, if we had picked Parise, is it nevertheless safe to say that in our organization he would have blossomed into the star that he has in the Devils’ system? More generally, how much of the blame for our bare cupboard goes to scouting and how much to development? (This isn’t a rhetorical question, I’m genuinely ignorant.)
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Ed J says:
I count this as the 1st true year for our rebuild.
The kid line looks to be the real deal but this team will not go anywhere w/o a heathy DP & 2 more really good D-man.
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To answer the Wang involvement, compare his business dealings from when he started Computer Associates to the Islanders.
Wang bought and gutted 200 companies to build CA. He bought a company and got rid of all decision makers, executives who had clout. He ran it tightfisted and was open about it. He oversaw every minute detail and gathered and gathered and built a huge company by not catering to dissent.
It’s admireable, yes, but cold and perhaps unwise.
He had the mind to make CA work the way he wanted and was ruthless in attaining power.
He hired family, underlings answered to him and were to a man sent to jail for the SEC probe (Wang got away scot free despite probes by the SEC and lawsuits) and he made a killing when the company was in dire straits (giant bonus payout during earnings misstatements).
The Isles have Dey (yes, Mr.Wang), Milbury (yes, Mr.Wang), Snow (yes sir, Mr.Wang) and Smith (you’re fired for free thought) and Wang himself fired Lavy and signed DP and pushed for the 10 year deal for Yashin according to sources (Milbury wanted less time/money, Wang wanted impact).
I just want to know how hard it is for him to NOT hire an experienced and well regarded person to run the team properly.
Would he give up that much control? Doubt it.
And I believe Milbury approached Brent Sutter after firing Sterling. Sutter said he didn’t want to leave Red Deer.
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19 ISLE in NJ 22 says:
Going to make best attempts to keep this under 100 words.
Drafting 18 year olds … crap shoot.
Even ‘I’ … and more than half the folks on this board could of drafted the top 5 picks in 2008 … and will be able to figure out the top 5 in 2009. Heck … even probably figure out the top 10… we’d have more hits than misses.
Scouting past the top 10 however is a science … and if you don’t have a good forensics team … you’re screwed.
I haven’t a clue what constitued the Isles’ scouting staff during the 02 – 05 draft … I still don’t …. however … keep in mind the Isles were drafting mid to late in the rounds … so they had to be extra sharp… prior to 2002 .. 2001 (1st rounder to Ottawa) … the Isles had some great prospects picked … Why??? Because they were drafting in the top 10 … so basically … I think MM lucked out just as any one of us would of. Think about that.
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Coach B says:
If you make a list of players on the NHL roster who are in the long trem plan, the list is rather short. So it is going to take time but let’s hope after this season the worst or bottoming out is over with.
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The rebuild is only in its first year … I firmly believe that you don’t see real dividends for at least 3 years … Bailey and Okposo are rare cases … and Bailey as much as I like him should have been returned to Juniors.
That being said … we will not know what we got from the 2008 draft till about 2011-12 season … that will be the first crop of rebuild players.
Also keep in mind .. that even if we get Tavares or Hedman don’t expect them to be the 2nd coming of Trottier or Potvin … they have their own trail to blaze … and at their own pace in a totally different hockey environment.
Look at the Caps, Pens, Hawks & Bruins … all at different stages of rebuilding … and all acquired certain free agents to top off their team … Isles are a minimum of 3 years from even getting to the point of FA enhancments.
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thepolishprince says:
Thanks for the reality check. I love the team so I’m here for the long haul but it is depressing to think that those draft years have yielded zilch in terms of viable prospects for this team.
Looks like I picked the wrong season to stop sniffin’ glue… -
Candyman says:
Some of you have indeed found some quality skaters that the Isles missed out on, and those points are well taken. But as I have been reiterating, and as JP in VA as acknowledged, a majority of NHL teams passed on those guys as well. And again I think that turns the argument to whether MM and 15 other GMS “whiffed” or a select few GMs got lucky.
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Alright,..all the GM’s with all this 20/20 hindsight… lets stop looking into the past and start looking into the future!! Who should we take with our first 3 picks this year… I’ll write them down and get back to you in 3 years and see how good you did. We have a good core, with Tavares or Hedman, and a couple of trades and free agents we’ll be right back in the thick of things. Stop all the doom and gloom! You’re all starting to sound like our president!!
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ive said bailey should have gone to juniors to improve his goal scoring from the begining and got shot down. other then the first week and a few games he has been invisible. rebuilding sounds nice but it sucks. and unfortunate for us, winning would really help our chances when the only time we have a big story is about us moving. i say it will be five years till we get into the playoffs. 4 years of being in the top ten and the fifth we make it in the tenth of the east. thats just based off drafting but if we get quality FA then that changes everything. like j-bow and komi. the chances of j-bow coming here? 1% komi? i can give it a 40% and if he hits the market then it is a 50% that is stretching it. we may land those type of guys in the years 3-5. with center depth it will attract wingers. and the dman 2-5 will come if we get a number one. we get our number one dman i say in year 3. those are my guesses. we never get a fighter though. sorry but thats not how we roll
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MSA says:
Sorry if this is off topic.
#102 – DerFerret – Your chronology of the ascent of Wang and CA has been something I have thought of often. When he took over those 200 companies, he put employment contacts in front of the people he wanted to keep, and the slightest hesitation in signing, even just asking for someone to look at the agreement, was grounds for instant termination.
I bring this up with regards to the Lighthouse. Could some of those thousands of fired workers have some friends in high places? The odds are pretty high. Maybe this is all payback.
Would most people do what Wang did to become a billionaire? Most people probably would. Could he have done things differently? Maybe. I have met the guy personally and have found him to be courteous, straightforward, and very intense….
His hands on management style, love it or hate it, made him very successful. Will it work in the NHL? The jury is still out, but his faith in Milbury was disturbing. No one can accuse him of a lack of commitment. I just hope we all aren’t paying the price for his earlier business decisions at CA…
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Moosie says:
Well, let’s go back to 1999, when Milbury drafted FOUR times in the first round and came up with Connelly, Mezei, Kudroc and Torres. The latter three have done zip in their respective post-Islander lives, and Connelly’s injuries have limited his career severely. What a complete waste of four first round selections.
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McLovin21 says:
I love it when people say “Milbury’s not here anymore, stop dwelling on his mistakes”. Much easier said than done after reading an article like this. Milbury essentially left us with an expansion team when he was finally purged from this organization. Even if everything goes right for an expansion team, they still usually dont end up being competitive until at least year 3.
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CB, maybe your can use your beloved strikethrough font on the list of players below that you really don’t feel will be here next year. Then we can see where we may stand come next season
Comrie-Weight-Guerin
Comeau-Bailey-Okposo
Hilbert-Nielsen-Hunter
Bergenheim-Park-Jackman
Thompson/Sim/TambelliniStreit-Witt
Martinek-Sutton
Campoli-Gervais
Meyer
Pock
HillenI really don’t know how to solve the forward issue, but if we draft Hedman, and sign Gilroy… I think this defense becomes better than average, very quickly. If by miracle we landed Komi in FA then people will have to take notice.
(assuming you move Witt)
Streit-Hedman
Campoli-Martinek
Sutton-Gilroy
Meyer/GervaisYou can juggle them how you wish, I was just trying to keep youth with experience.
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Again This organization has no depth at any position, that is why the management finally realized its time to rebuild. As of now the Islanders have 9 picks in the 2009 draft. In every trade they make before the deadline,I am sure they will be getting back a draft pick in whatever package they get…Many people on this blog are talking about the draft being a crapshoot…but the more draft picks you have the better chance you have of getting useful players…instead of relying on Free agents Stars that won’t come here.
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brian i dont think that was the reason. i think the reason was that we were plunging in the standings and no one wants to be here. and it is fitting that we are trying to rebuild the arena too.
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Moosie — 111 — but go back and look at the whole first round. Look at the whole draft. It was terrible. I know it’s frustrating that we had four number 1′s, and got basically nothing. Martin Havlat is maybe the only you might say “damn, we should have picked him.” It was a lousy year to have four number 1′s.
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CB i was wondering if you could comment on why it seems ESPN’s Scott Burnside doesn’t really like the islanders. He mostly never has anything good to say about them and when he does its usually a backwards compliment that has an insult or 2 in it
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Geoff says:
Thee failures of the Milbury regime go back to the time he started at GM. Especially at the Draft. The facts are that the had two picks in the top 5 TWICE in a span of three years (97 and 00). He had 4 picks in the first round in the 1999 Draft. He had the first overall pick in 2000 and the second overall pick in 2001.
And here we are a decade later and all we have to show for all those draft picks is an oft injured goalie.
So, yeah, the 2002-2005 drafts are hurting us now, but we’re still paying for the gross mismanagement for the four years prior to that.
And ChrisTMC mentioned Milbury’s ability to draft well up in the comments. A monkey with a dartboard could have more success than Milbury did at the Draft.
Mike Milbury ruined the Islanders. Plain as that.
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Look Nick, i never said it had to be quick! However the Past is the Past and every islander fan knows where we have been. With that said you look forward and hope Garth Snow can change things. Look he will have 2 great drafts in his 2 years to help solve this. That with a mix of Talented Vets, should make us be a playoff Team in 3 years and thats fine. Nick we all can see with our own eyes that we dont have a CUP team here, who in the world would think that! And you never answered my post under the Queens move?
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Sorry, that was Pyatt, not Torres. That makes a huge difference.
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And they made a conscious decision to not rely on the amateur draft and scouting in the early part of this decade. I’d like to know whose great idea that was. I’m not imagining this. I’d go and try to pull up an article off the internet, but don’t have the time to do the research right now. What I would like to know is whether that decision was the brainchild of the owner as a cost savings device or just the Village Idiot GM doing what he did best.
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Hey Geoff (118): Yes I did mention the Islanders successful drafts before that time. And if youre so sure that the Isles didnt have anybody worth a thing, remember that the next time you see people complain about having to trade away Ziggy, Chara, McCabe, Jokinen, Berard, etc etc etc etc etc etc
mrlbem(121):
You actually want to know WHY the Isles brought in FAs in the 2000s? Ill tell you why- because after all the penny pinching and forced player dumping of the 90s, they wanted to bring some good players in to the team. Thats all. And the Isles fans were FOR it at the time. If youre telling me that in 01-02 you were actually complaining about being the talk of the NHL and ultimately a point off of the division leader, that you were the Isles fan complaining at that moment in time that the Isles werent at the bottom of the league doing a rebuild, Im sorry but I do not believe you. -
Harry says:
Little sidenote, but I think it deals with the future of the team too. Lebrun gave some props to Gordon in his predictions for the USA 2010 coaching staff prediction, saying he has impressed some people in the league. Definitely an encouraging thing to hear. No love for Okposo though in the forward predictions just yet.
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Robert says:
Other drafts that didn’t help:
1999:
THREE TOP TEN PICKS!
5th: Tim Connolly
8th: Taylor Pyatt
10th: Branislav Mezei2000:
TWO TOP FIVE PICKS!
1st: Rick Dipietro
5th: Raffi TorresThe only player from this list that is still on the roster is Dipietro, and picking him might have been the worst of all these picks beacause we could have just kept Luongo and taken either Heatley or Gaborik first overall instead of Dipietro…
5 picks in the top 10 between 1999-2000 and all could be considered busts or at the very least disappointments…
Also not having a #1 pick in 2007 for renting Ryan Smyth is another reason the well is dry..
But let’s look forward to the 2009 draft.. The tavhed??? watch starts again very soon after game 60… Lets load upon some more draft picks at the deadline!! -
Terry says:
Why not include 2000 and 2001? Not to whip a dead horse, but using your first round pick to draft a goalie when you had taken one fourth overall three years earlier is unbelieveably wasteful, especially passing on top flight forwards like Heatley and Gaborik, when Rick might have been there at five. Having DP and Heatley instead of DP and Torres would have made the Luongo trade easier to swallow. Columbus might have taken DP over Klesla, maybe not. But trading a goalie and a forward for a goalie and a forward and a pansy is lateral movement. And they overpaid for Yashin, considering what Spezza turned into, with the Peca trade providing some protection up the middle for the young player. I figure you left these two years out to avoid rehashing the Luongo/Yashin stuff.
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I feel like my last post was a little too depressing rehashing the 1999 & 2000 drafts..
I just want to say, last nights Okposo goal was the most inspiring and promising thing I’ve seen from the Isles this season.. that and the 2 beautiful assists Bailey had in one game a few weeks ago!! -
alex plante would have helped this team soooo much…..maybe instead of arguing we should put more of an effort to build a time machine. go back to drafts and make adjustments. 4 cups to well more sups then the yanks and habs put together. also, we tell wang secrets and badda bing badd boom lighthouse project. o and we mess up the rangers so that they are worse then the leafs. i had a dream about this once found out i had a 103 fever. true story. bad story
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Paul – I was at my limit on that thread. I completely agree with what you said in your latest post and may have simply misunderstood you. I just disagree with the fact that we’ve been rebuilding since 1993, and since this is Year 1 of a new journey I would say contending in 3 years and having a legitimate Cup chance in 4-5 is totally reasonable.
As for your post under the Queens thread, what would that do? If you’re so convinced Charles Wang is a crook and a liar that you won’t support the Lighthouse unless he answers hypothetical questions that have no bearing on the project (especially since the Lighthouse includes a 25 year extension on the lease), what can I say that would change your mental model?
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o and can we stop with the heatley talks. mad mike already said he would have taken gaborik. either way we would have ended up with two injury prone players.
and two allstars
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Isles4cups says:
My hope for the Islanders is that they are able to make some keen moves prior to the trade deadline and have a very successful draft in June ’09. If Garth Snow were able to draft Tavares #1 and sign Mike Komisarek on July 1, I would be happy with those two moves.
As far as Mike Milbury is concerned, he is history and it’s time to move on.
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d-man says:
chris… is logan jealous or mad that you get 130 responses? what does he avg. now like 5?
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That place was great for a really long time, but then it got overrun with trolls and a few of the regulars went insane…I know myself, 505, JPinVA, and 19 Isles migrated over here. It’s a shame since Greg is a talented writer who cares enough to give us a good product. With all the BS it just wasn’t worth it to post regularly anymore.
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Bridgeport fan says:
CB as good of a draft as the Isles may have had last year the cupboard is still bare.This rebuild will be going on 3-4 more years minimum before we can see what types of dividends are paid off.With the amount of Solid top 6 and top 4 potential in this years top 60 draft. Would it be a terrible thing for the Isles to trade down a bit if they ended up with the 3rd pick or even lower.3-8 draft picks seem pretty even on paper.
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blitz says:
Spezza has turned into some mythical figure for folks via the Yashin deal. Spezza, a solid regular season NHL point getter, has looked more like Yashin-lite in the playoffs than Steve Yzerman.
Sadly, that even includes on a team with such offensive weapons of Heatley and Alfredo. Let alone, years of Chara, Redden, Mezaros, etc.
The guy has been criticized extensively for on ice brain farts and lack of motivation to step it up. Imagine him a team with LESS talent. Whew… His aura would plummet rather quickly.
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I think we’ll be a lot better than everyone’s giving credit for.
We’ll still have Hunter, Comeau, Nielsen, Okposo & Bailey (forget hilbert & tambellini & thompson & bergenheim); Add Jackman, Park & the 1st Rounder here in 2009 and 2 free agents, mayhe 3 if both Guerin & Weight are gone and we’ll be resurrected up front.
I’m more worried about our D. Other than Streit there’s no one that I feel remotely confident in. Witt will be a goner at some point, Campoli & Gervais are overrated, Martinek is O.K. but Sutton cannot skate for nothing; Callahan & Hillen aren’t anything to write home about….Where’s the D coming from??
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Chris (#122): Of the names you mentioned only Chara was drafted by Milbury. The rest were there when he got the job or pieces he acquired.
I never said that they didn’t have pieces worth a damn at the START of the Milbury era, or even the halfway point (2001). But when he left the team, Milbury left the cupboard not only bare, but broken, decaying and lit on fire.
The ineptitude of the late 90′s Islanders + an idiotic and impatient GM (a few historically bad trades + terrible drafting outside of the top 5) = a crappy team.
Just LOOK at the job he did. He’ll go down as arguably the worst GM in hockey history. He’s the reason that a scant 7 years after their last rebuild, the Islanders find themselves in the same position.
And to be honest, I’m glad CB pointed it out, but there’s not enough Milbury bashing. There can never be enough. I know he’s your friend, CB and he might be a good guy, but he shares the burden of responsibility of the current state of this team and should be criticized frequently for it. The fans need the kind of catharsis that could bring (that or a public flogging) (Kidding. Kind of.)
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Oops, made a mistake. Ignore the “Ineptitude of the late 90′s” comment above. Has nothing to do with what follows. Let it be a lesson to never leave the comp in the middle of a resonse.
Also, to follow up on Milbury, why he’s not recognized as the Matt Millen of his sport is insane. You know how a local Detroit NBC station called Millen out on the Super Bowl pre-game show crawl? That’s how I feel about Milbury. I still can’t believe that no one on either HNIC or the NBC shows has ended an argument with him with, “Luongo and Jokinen for Kvasha and Parrish.” It basically renders his opinion moot.
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SIR WILLIAM says:
Gee Chris, I seem to have wriiten a similar thread about a month ago about the horrible draft picks and got hammered for it.
I wrote the other day that Bergy is a bust and got fifty responses why he is a great player.I said all along the Comeau is a spare part and people here go crazy.
Thanks Chris, for an honest look at the situation. For whatever reason bloggers here really tend to over rate the talent pool here. Thanks for telling it like it is….SW
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I think the two questions I’d have about the past regime are these:
1. Did Luongo (or his agent) force Milbury’s hand in going after DiPietro. Because that has to whole scenario is probably the worse series of moves in hockey history.
2. Why did they give up ANYTHIING for Yashin. Who else was bidding for captain runaway? “Well… we know he held out all year and your fans hate him anyway becasue he’s Claude Raines in the playoffs… but here is our first pick, and a 6’7″ defenseman who might have some potential”. -
PART 2… trying to keep them under 100 words…
And I don’t care who’s decision it was to sign Yashin for 10 years… but how #&$^ing stupid do you have to be, after that is a monstrous disaster, to sign a (ok, better than average) goalie to a 15 year deal… no matter what a “bargain” it MIGHT turn out to be 10 years down the road.
I’m a fan… and I’m rooting for Snow and Gordon to succeed, but anybody that thinks that Wang isn’t the ringmaster to a three ring hockey circus is delusional. -
part 3… I need a proofreader.
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Well Nick your right it has no bearing on the LightHouse, However it does have bearing on the Islander fans who are going to Bat for the LightHouse because of the Islanders. I mean lets clear one thing up, Islanders fans would not be gun hoe for this unless they Knew in the end it benfits the Islanders, agreed? (how will fans benifit from it other wise?)
Now with that said i believe Mr. Wang has an obligation to the Fans and the Organization and the public to tell his intentions for this club, I mean come on! If Wang sells the Islanders after the project is complete or while building the project,how will it BENFIT the Islanders(if wang sells)Will he give Money or Renvenue sharring! What! we should just take him on his word, Didn’t Sanjay Kumar do that? I never called Wang a Liar or did i say i do not trust him. However when the Islanders are going to be locked in a lease for another 25 years Wang does have an obligation to tell WHAT HIS PLANS ARE FOR THE ISLANDER ORGANIZATION, is that to much to ask when he will Own 95% of that land forever! Are you saying we should just go blind eye for the Lighthouse and HOPE Mr.Wang does the right thing? To me that is bad business and us Islander Fans deserve more than that.He should be Loud and Clear to all fans on how this Organization will benifit from the Completion of the lightHouse. I dont think it is to much to ask! -
Dorfer says:
JP – Don’t forget we gave up Bill Muckalt in the Yashin deal, too…
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Dorfer.. sorry… I knew that, but when my posts get translated from their native mandarin chinese sometimes things get lost.
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How will this organization benefit from completion of the Lighthouse project? Well, how about this: IT WILL STILL BE LOCATED ON LONG ISLAND. How’s that for a start?
I mean, seriously, why in the world would Wang sell the team AFTER (or during) completion of this project? You do realize that a renovated Coliseum is one of the centerpieces of the project, right? What good will the renovated Coliseum be without it’s main tenant?
Hard for me to understand that, regardless of how many screw-ups there have been in the past – and there have been more than their share – that can be attributed to Wang, that so many people out there continue to just bash him and/or question him for EVERYTHING. Bottom line, whether some of you want to understand this or not: This team is likely gone from LI without Charles Wang – perhaps already – and it is almost certainly gone without the Lighthouse. He is the single reason you still have a local team to bitch and moan about.
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CB, very informative article, the truth does hurt. I do believe you are missing another angle here. Your drafts went up until 2005 and I agree those draft choices were weak. I am still not over JP’s kid! But you may want to analyze the 2006 draft, you know the one that Neil Smith was in charge of. Okposo, Joenussu as mentioned by another fan, Rhett Rhas and Figren. That looks like it was a great draft. I watched the University of Denver play Minnesota Deluth, This kid Rhett dominated in every facet, penalty killing, scoring, settingup plays on the power play. I think in two to three years the 2006 dtafy will pay some big dividends, ironically due to Neil Smith.
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I’m willing to give MM the benefit of the doubt when he was “forced” to trade away some of the Isles’ best prospects just before they blossomed … the Spano / Milsteins destroyed the foundation of the team … and MM was the face of that horrible transformation. Was he forced into that by virtual gun point? Probably … seems a reasonable assumption.
Some of those players weren’t MM draft picks … they were Torrey / Maloney … some were MM’s …
But we also have to be left to wonder … How those players would of developed if they stayed Islanders… Did the Islanders invest enough $$$$ into developing players … or just throw caution to the wind and hope.
My hope now is that Bryan Trottier’s Hockey University will develop the current crop of prospects into better players than they would of been under a different organization.
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Geoff (137)
I’ve heard Pierre McGuire rag on Milbury a lot of times regarding his poor decision making as Isles GM … MM’s comments usually are … I will not go there.
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Watching McGuire (for some reason thought he was Emerick) rip on Mad Mike hurts me deep down. Seeing Mad Mike so callous is insulting as a fan. But whatever, the past is the past.
Nice article, CB. I never went to the open houses (don’t live in LI), but I understood from the reports that this was going to be a tough season, and as long as I see some efforts like most of January and February, I am okay with seeing some more losing seasons.
I like Garth’s drafting chops. It is clear how many resources he has placed in scouting, and I hope to hell that it all pays off. If the Islanders are contending by 2010-2011 with a mostly homegrown team, then I’ll be as happy as a pig in mud.
Bergie is the one player that I truly hope finds his place. I think he needs a slightly more talented line (Hunter and Nielsen) because he may not live up to his first round status, but he creates a ton of chances, but what can you do with Park (not known for his scoring), and Jackman (even less known for his offense). No offense to those guys, but they won’t step in as finishers.
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Isle be Damned says:
Post #4
I can care less if the fans can be patient enough. I just want the franchise to be patient enough. Don’t Milbury this and start calling kids a bust if they aren’t scoring 30 goals by the time they’re 22.
This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. You can’t blame the current staff for mistakes the previous staff made, and it’s certainly not productive to complain about drafts that are long past. Let’s face it, we had some really awful drafts at the beginning of this decade, and we’ll need 2 more strong ones to get back to respectability. As long as we have a plan and a group that’s governed by something other than whim and impulse, bring it on.