DEFUSING THE DATSYUK/ZETTERBERG ARGUMENT
No, it’s not easy drafting skill in the later rounds
“You CAN draft skill in the later rounds - look where the Red Wings got Zetterberg and Datsyuk.”
An oft-repeated Reader Comment
Respectfully, it’s time to retire that one.
The Detroit organization has been exceptional at drafting and developing talent from a wide range of sources. There’s a reason assistant GM Jim Nill is interviewed for GM jobs and a reason the Red Wings do everything to keep him.
The drafting of Pavel Datsyuk 171st overall in 1998 and Henrik Zetterberg 210th overall in 1999 was an unparalleled combination of back-to-back scouting finds. They’re so good, they will help the Red Wings be a consistent contender for over a decade.
But think about this for a moment: do you really think the Red Wings themselves had any idea Datsyuk and Zetterberg would become great NHL players?
It’s true that one of the keys of drafting is making “value picks.” For example, if you know a player has almost no chance of being drafted before the fifth round, there’s no reason to take him in the first. Every team has a few guys on their list as their little secrets. I saw first-hand at the draft table how the Islanders kept Radek Martinek in their back pocket until the 228th overall pick in 1999 (they could have had Zetterberg 18 picks earlier!)
You can bank on this. If the Red Wings scouts truly knew Datsyuk and Zetterberg were going to be perennial all-stars, they would never have waited so long to take them. They might not have used a first or even a second round pick on them, but they would not have chosen Jari Tolsa (120th overall), Andrei Maximenko (149th) and Kent McDonell (181st) with their only three draft selections before tabbing Zetterberg.
Before they finally drafted Datsyuk, they would not have used rounds 2-5 to take Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Calle Steen and Adam DeLeeuw.
The Datsyuk and Zetterberg picks were amazing. They were the stuff of which champions and legendary scouting careers are born. But don’t think teams - even as great as Detroit - have the ability to make a habit of it. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the only A-list NHLers the Red Wings have produced in the late rounds since 1995. Other than the since-waived Kyle Quincey and maybe Darren Helm, they haven’t drafted any B-listers in the late rounds in the last 14 years either.
The New Jersey Devils are the NHL’s other standard-bearer for drafting and development. Led by prospect guru David Conte, the Devils took Paul Martin in the second round in 2000, Brian Gionta in the third round in 1998 and Colin White in the second round in 1996. They were also smart enough to stop the insanity in 2003 and move up in the first round to…well, you know.
But do you know the last three-star NHLer the Devils drafted in the fourth round or later?
Chris Mason, in the fourth round of the 1995 draft. Twelve years and several organizations later (including multiple stops in Nashville) Mason became a No. 1 goalie with the Predators.
Of course, it’s easy to list the outstanding players picked late in the draft in the last 30 years. But if it were so easy to actually draft late-round gems, Nill and Detroit and Conte and New Jersey - widely considered the best at the draft game - would find them more often than once or twice every 15 years.
Comments.
65 Responses to “DEFUSING THE DATSYUK/ZETTERBERG ARGUMENT
No, it’s not easy drafting skill in the later rounds”
Please Wait
I’m not expecting to get Zetterberg and Datsyuk in this draft. I would just like to draft Tavares, Hedman, and Duchene.
I know I’m crazy, but what do you want from me. I’m in the middle of Westchester (also know as Ranger Country). There are no Islander fans for 10’s of miles.
A boy can to dream.
slightly off topic
I respect the red wings but if you look back at their history they had a miserable 21 year stretch from 1966 to 1987 where they we’re rather pitiful
when I see their history and how they turned things around I feel as though theres hope for the isles to do the same
Hawks are another fine example of how hockey can make a comeback in a market that was thought to be dead .
CB, thanks for the insight, at first, the Wings look like geniuses, but they have had their share of clunkers too. The expression that best comes to mind in the later rounds is,”Even a blind chicken finds a crumb every so often.”
This can sort of beg the question do we package picks and try to trade up this year or do we hold onto all the picks we have and take the BPA? I think we should hold ‘em all and the law of averages works in our favor. As far as late round picks go my fingers are crossed that DiBo ends up being a steal at some point.
First let me say that NYI Fan is being rather prescient in her/his comment (#2). It seems to me that the ‘meat and potatoes’ are to be found in those first two rounds with any players developed from the later rounds or found in post draft free agency to be considered the ‘gravy’. CB I would have thought that this thread was more poignant if you had included where the players drafted before Datsyuk and Zetterberg had ended up - ie were they never signed, ECHL quality talent at best or did their progress stop in the AHL, also if they had had a decent minor league career would have been nice to know as well because they then could have been helpful in developing other talent for the Wings.
Thanks CB … I’d love to see that arguement retired also … I’m a huge fan of Jimmy Devellano and the Wings’ front office… I think that they’ve invested a lot in scouting, and even more than that … DEVELOPMENT!!
Follow up: I attended camps at Glens Falls CC back when the Wings’ affiliate was in Adirondack & got to rub elbows with various players and coaches … I was impressed the A-Wings used seasoned AHL-Vets to push the kids … coaches drilled fundamentals hard to shore up a players’ game on every level. Surprisingly, these guys worked hard on Fundys just as a youth player … The Wings used these developing players as assets for trades … they knew they couldn’t plan on every player making the Detroit team… simply, they maxed out the value of their picks and added great FA’s.
CB nice piece. This is why more picks are needed. If you look at drafts in years past it’s only the first two or three players chosen that are can’t miss picks. The remainder of the 1st round and most of the second round are 50/50 at best. The 2003 draft is always brought up because of Parise, but San Jose picked after the Isles and took Steve Bernier who’s been traded twice and Mike Richards went 24th overall. I bet a lot of team wish they picked Richards. Once you get past the 40th overall or so pick it a total crap-shoot.
Everyone talks about Bailey v. Luke Schenn, and who will be a better player in the long run. What if Bailey’s a bust, but Krill Petrov comes over in a few years and turns into the next Datsyuk. Time will tell.
(1) I know, I live in westchester too, it is ranger country, I always feel outnumbered and so does my 10 yr old son.
Well said. ‘Nuff said.
In my opinion it is not only the talent you draft but how you develop the talent. I am very happy that the Islanders now commit to a systetm that is played throughout the organiztion. If there was one bright spot this year it was that when a player was called up from Bridgeport they seemed very comfortable and were able to contribute even for one or two game call ups. If they can continue to draft and develop players who match this system hopefully the Isles will have some later round picks become future first or second line players at the NHL level.
This is a HOT one … The debate about drafting players. I feel strongly about this because of time and resources spent on developing players … most never have a shot at the NHL.
I’m a strong advocate of the draft age being 19 y/o vice 18. I recall a stat that cited the entire decade of the ’90s 2,600 players were drafted … 496 (19%) played 200 games or more.
Worse … only 25% selected in the 2nd round, and 12% of the remaining 2,000+ drafted from 3rd round became career players. Good thing for 7 rounds now.
The Wings also have deep roots in the Euro/Russian leagues with this scout of theirs, Andersson. I was reading something a while back about him finding Zetterberg while scouting Mattias Weinhandl, and finding Datsyuk while scouting Kalinin…and finding Franzen before SEL teams even had. But the Wings have established that scouting system for two decades now…it stands to reason they’d find more diamonds in the rough. I think the Isles have had a lot more turnover in strategies and personnel in that time. To think we’ll pull a Zetterberg out of a hat b/c the Wings did is a bit unrealistic…but I guess you never know.
Look, you can always find a ‘diamond in the rough’ in the later rounds - but 3/4 of that is nothing but luck. The Isles have picked some good players late in drafts, but to say that they knew all these guys were going to pan out is ludicrous:
‘04: Chris Campoli (7th round/#227)
‘03: Bruno Gervais (6/182)
‘99: Radek Martinek (8/228)
‘94: Dick Tarnstrom (11/272)
‘93: Darren Van Impe (7/170)
‘91: Andreas Johansson (7/136)
‘89: Vladimir Malakhov (10/191)
‘88: Marty McInnis (8/163)
‘87: Rob DiMaio (6/118)
‘86: Rich Pilon (7/143)
‘84: David Volek (10/208)
‘82: Alan Kerr (4/84)
‘80: Greg Gilbert (4/80)
‘76: Ken Morrow (4/68)
‘74: Stefan Persson (14/214)
‘73: Bob Lorimer (9/129)
‘72: Garry Howatt (10/144)
Morrow is obviously the most successful of the group, and most of these guys went on to have solid NHL careers. Are any as gifted offensively as Datsyuk & Zetterberg? No, which goes to show how rare it is to find 2 special players like that so late in the draft.
Drafing 18 year old kids is very difficult. I do not like to rip teams regarding the draft unless they pass on a sure fire guy like Gretzky or Mario. You never know how these 18 year old players are going to develop. The players also have to have the dedication to make it big. It’s not right to just blame the team if these draft picks do not work out. It really is just a crap shoot. That’s why the more draft pick the better chance of finding a player.
just wondering what the knock on dibenedetto was before last years draft besides the one where he got his points because he was playing with stamkos
What if the Isles draft a D with the 26th pick and he turns out to be better than Hedman? You never know what the kid will grow into. Justin D looks like he might be a player, who knew.
What about Jonathon Ericsson? Another Detroit gem as the last pick of the 2002 draft (pick 291). He’s going to be an absolute force on D for years to come.
CB-
I agree 100%.
I’m just curious, when are the Isles finally gonna have their turn at luck when it comes to a 4th/5th round pick?
(Yes, that is rhetorical.)
#11 or tavares.
does anyone know how to get tickets to the draft on june 26th?
I’ve been telling people this for about 10 years now, but it seems very few islander fans are intelligent enough to believe it. These are the same fans that think Hedman would be as valuable as Tavares, and that a 50-story lighthouse will be built on L.I.
I think the way these kids are groomed in different organizations is how they turn out..Detroit’s system with draft picks must be different than anybody elses in the league.. most players we drafted in the late 90’s didnt blossom or find their game till they went to a different organization.. IE: chara,bertuzzi,mcCabe..
#16 also know as herbscooking
Are you thinking of going? If so and there’s a few more other guy going, I’m in.
CB, I know we are not supposed to attack our fellow posters and so I will not do so with respect to the misinformede position that Frei takes in post #17. However I will correct him by citing it as an example of how the Wang/Rechler development group have already publicly compromised on the Lighthouse project by dropping the 50 story from their planned development and hopefully other posters here who complain on the various threads that are posted on this awesome Blog will note that the LHG have been responsive to criticism from certain quarters and take CW at face value when he states that if there is something they don’t like then enter in a dialogue about so that any and all additional compromises that may or need to be made can be entered into.
17 - Can you explain your argument bette? The uneducated people didn’t understand it
Sure. For about 5 years now, I’ve been pining for the team to just quit screwing around, finish dead last, get the first pick, and draft a franchise offensive player that can score goals that a team can be built around.
Nobody wanted to hear that, because, they said, it would allow for a “Losing Culture” to be promoted, which would be detrimental to the team. These people insisted that it was not necessary to draft high to obtain a franchise offensive player.
They were, and still are, deluded. As are those that think a Lighthouse will be built in Nassau county.
The lighthouse is, of course, unncecessary, as the other 29 teams in the league go without one, and instead sell their product based on its quality.
Since the lighthouse is out, you need an exciting product. John Tavares is a marquee that people will come and pay to see. Victor Hedman is not.
Hopefully this clears things up for you a bit.
Detroit exhibits patience something the author of this piece fails to understand.young players aren’t rushed to the nhl in Detroit,it took 10 years after Ilitch bought the Wings before the depth started to show and that’s without the dearth of high picks the isles have had.as far as later gems in last 14 years maybe this writer is missing the last pick in the 2002 draft Jonathan Ericcson.and when you draft as well as Detroit has for so long,you don’t need to hit on a gem every yr.Geez isn’t getting the payload on Zetterberg and Datsyuk plenty enough?the writer seems to think Detroit HAS to hit on a star EVERY year.i guess when you are a crap team you think like that.i can’t understand why Wang even bought the team,he seems like an idiot.
#23 I think you might have to read the article again.I believe you have clearly missed something.The article I read was in praise of the Detroit organization and how well they draft and develop.
frei, i completely agree with you. i remember reading your posts on newsday before that board became full of hackers. i too advocated for the isles losing last year and got flamed for it. frei, these same people never realize their mistakes. they just follow the consensus opinion. hopefully, snow drafts jt. isnt it funny before the isles got the 1st pick, tavares was god. he was the next one. he was going to break records, etc, etc. now that the isles have the 1st pick, tavares cant skate. he cant play defense. duchene is more of a complete player. hedman can skate like the wind. its all bs, frei. some of us realize it and some of us dont.
spot on Chris…go take a look at Detroits draft history…plenty of busts to go around.
Draft is a lottery…the more balls you have (picks) the more your likely to hit on one of them…I mean middle rounders and even the back end of the second round.
Frei, I agree with everything you said up until the Tavares over Hedman part.
No one can speculate who will be better at this point, so it’s premature to suggest Tavares will single-handedly start selling out the Coliseum.(I hope you’re right)A marquee name won’t put fans in the seats if the team as a whole isn’t good. I’m sure the Thrashers have marketed Kovalchuk to death in Atlanta but they’re not going to sellout until their team is a consistent contender.
If building a better team means drafting Hedman over Tavares I’m all for it. A better team will sellout over any other factor.
Frei, you don’t get it do you? More and more teams in the league HAVE arenas built within mixed-use real estate developments…and those that don’t have it are beginning to work on getting it (Ottawa, Philly, etc.). And about hockey, your 10 year nonsense notwithstanding, YOU don’t know that Tavares will be the player you think he will be…and the Isles need the best player available…PERIOD! And this is true for any round…draft the best player on your board!
he states they haven’t had a reach pick make it since 1995,Ericcson was last in 2002,so it’s pretty clear he doesn’t know the Wings well.east coast blinders.kinda that NBC/Versus take.all the glory hype for Crosby and the Rangers on those stations,sickening.i realize he praises them for Zetterberg and Datsyuk,but Detroit has alot of under the radar young talent coming.their AHL franchise is one of the youngest in the AHL.just giving the best their due.
Even if you look at the guys drafted fourth-seventh rounds who became serviceable NHL players, you’re still talking a fraction of the 180 guys drafted each year. Probably about 10% of those picks tops. You’re probably better off packaging your 6th, 7th rounders with your 4th and 5th rounders to move up any chance you get.
Still worthwhile to keep in mind Datsyuk was picked because he had extraordinary skill, but he didn’t have much exposure and lacked athletic qualities. It was a long shot, but they knew he was going to be a scorer if he ever came good. Before Datsyuk they selected players that didn’t have Datsyuk’s natural skills and were never expected to become scoring stars even if they reached their ceiling.
(23) CB clearly made the point that even Detroit doesn’t hit the jackpot most years with later picks. That is, even the very model organization can’t do it, let alone the rest of the NHL. In no way did he suggest Detroit should hit the jackpot more often. Don’t be so touchy.
(25) There is no conspiracy, Tavares’s weaknesses have been there all along. He is an extraordinary offensive talent close to the goal, but there are prospects better than him in some other areas of the game. Duchene has taken a step forward this season, and that is why he’s the name of the moment. Tavares is taken for granted at this point — familiarity breeds contempt — and some people need the excitement of novelty. Tavares will be a scorer in the NHL, and I doubt you’ll find a scout who questions that. I remember someone saying in these comments recently that Tavares’s falling stock reminded him of Esposito. Bad comparison. Esposito hasn’t been a certainty to become an NHL player for some time now, whereas Tavares is as sure a thing as you’ll get. It’s just that Tavares is not a Crosby or Ovechkin style of player, he never was, and there is debate about his upside. He’s a special talent, but it remains to be seen how much his weaknesses hurt him at this level. He might also improve a lot after finally being eligible to move up from the juniors. There was a good article on Hockey’s Future about Tavares earlier this week if you need to fortify your belief in his ability.
Hey CB, I was just thinking that an interesting story/series of stories would be to do some player profiles of what some of the players were like off the ice from your time with the team. Even if you just told a story or two of something that happened that shows what they were like.
If you don’t want to get into what happens behind closed doors, I completely understand that, but I bet there are some things that aren’t really private, but have never been written about, and with nothing else to talk about through June except the draft, i thought I’d throw that out there. Sorry to go off topic.
Here is one that has helped the Islanders for this draft. Campoli was a 7th round pick and the Islanders got a late first for him.
Datsyuk 171
Zetterberg 210
And who else? Try …
Holmstrom 257
Ericsson 291
Konstantinov 221
Meech 229 (who they held onto ahead of Quincey)
Daniel McGillis 228
And the not so late pics …
Dallas Drake 116
Franzen 97
Mike Knuble 76
Etc, etc …
Must be a fluke
just so it s been said: Streit was drafted in the 9th round by Montreal (260 something)
(39) Thanks for the list, but it doesn’t go against anything I wrote in the 8th paragraph (since 1995, late rounds, level of players, etc.) Ericsson has been brought up a few times by readers. Very talented player, but is he ready to be canonized after two and a half years in Grand Rapids and a half in Detroit? Could be down the line, but a little too early, no?
Thanks to everyone for the excellent on-topic comments. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday…CB
Who cares about the past drafts… Draft Tavares. Trade up and get another player who could step in and play - Shroeder or Cowan hopefully… The cornerstones are in place - Okposo, Bailey, Tavares, Streit, DiPietro - Thats a solid foundation to build around. Be patient and have faith in Snow. We’ll be OK; he’s doing the right thing…
I don’t think anyone is implying that you get hall of famers in later rounds all the time. More to the point that you can get servicable players in any round. And yes, the rare great player.
Looking across the league there are a lot of players that get the job done picked in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc rounds.
If the Isles don’t draft Hedman that doesn’t mean they miss out on getting a Dman at all in the draft. I think it’s rarer that you find Tavares later on in the draft.
I am of the opinion that the Isles should hold onto all their picks. It’s not worth it just to move up a few spots in the first. They have a few more years of rebuilding to work with so even if some of these later rounders turn into just depth guys that’s not bad either.
I think it’s just as backwards to focus on grabbing potential superstars and ignoring franchise depth. When your big guys get injured you have no insurace. And we do see that happen to good teams all the time.
DAMN!!!
Sorry for the long post. I hate it when I do that. Not trying to hog the space.
Watch the Wings games instead of forming an uninformed opinion Chris,Ericcson will be in Detroit next year,on most other teams he is a top 4,maybe top 2 guy on some with his size and skating.
Hey MrHockeytown if your team is so great why are you reading our blog. If anyone has blinders on it’s you, try reading the article again without pouting.
I hope I’m not late with this but Streit’s OT goal on power play gives Switzerland a 3-2 win over Germany in Worlds.
One of the great late round picks has to be Luc Roubatie.Anyone know what round and number he was?
Lucky Luc, probably one of the best late round picks ever…9th Round 171st overall in ‘84 draft
I just played golf with a bunch of Canadiens and each said the same thing, if the Islanders don’t take JT they are the dumbest team ever.
i’m reading it because it involves my team in the article and it’s inaccurate,and it’s linked to kuklas korner not that you’d read a hockey site in ny.
51 bs
#50… are any of those Canadians pro scouts or are we suppose to care about their opinions because they were born north of the border.
Fact is, if the Islanders don’t do their job in scouting and just take everyone’s word.. then they would be the stupidest team ever.
Wow, can’t just play some golf and have a good hockey talk with Canadiens anymore and throw it out there?
The Thrashers can market Kovalchuck as much as they want and not sell out… because they really aren’t a hockey hotbed… No?
I think a player that has the excitement and pre-hyped notice of Tavares… coming to LI can indeed be enough to get the fans excited enough to come to the games.
Yes… winning games will help.
But… there is a fan base… “dying” for something or SOMEONE (TAVARES) to watch!!!
It’s Canadians…
JT will be the pick @ #1.
I wish we were drafting a Superstar… but I will take the sniper.
It’s more than we have now.
Nielson and Bailey in the middle… with Okposo and Tavarses on the wings.
Works for me.
(1) (9) Yeah guys I’m originally from Queens now living in Westchester- very much Ranger country. Sometimes I get into staring matches with Ranger fans in Dunkin Donuts because I’m wearing Islander gear. Only in New York.
Chickendirt (43): I agree with what you said about how you CAN get servicable players in any round… as well as the rare great player. Its good that someone said it because being rare doesnt make the existence of possibility any less true!
@55, Atlanta isn’t a hockey hotbed because they’ve never won, that was my argument. When Tampa and Phoenix were making the playoffs they sold out so its irrelevant that the Thrashers are in a weak hockey market.
If the Thrashers had some playoff success and 90+ point seasons, they’d definately see a positive spike in attendance…with or without Kovalchuk.
If the Isles continue to lose with Tavares what makes you think Isles fans will stick around? If Snow thinks Hedman, not Tavares, is a better fit toward forming a consistent winning team…I’m all for it
What’s been touched on in some of the comments is that Detroit doesn’t just draft well. They develop well. Their players are given a strong support system, and young guys are slotted into clearly defined roles as they move up through the ranks. There’s no intense pressure on young players to perform heroics immediately, and they get a chance to learn from the best players in the world–frequently their own countrymen–in their own time. When you hear people refer to Detroit as a ‘model organization’, it’s not merely about their drafting. The franchise takes care of its players, respects them in contract negotiations, has a team identity built around a system of play and a cultural attitude, and has stability in ownership, management, and support staff.
As for the Islanders’ prospect pool, the late-round pick I’m highest on right now is Matt Martin. As flashy as DiBenedetto’s numbers were this year, Martin’s got the full game–strong defensively, strong net presence, strong leadership. Most importantly, the kid is a sponge. I wouldn’t be surprised if, after his last season in juniors, he’s at the top of the Islanders’ prospect depth chart in early June ‘10.
I also think you meant defused, Chris, not diffused.
To me this piece reads like someone who is jealous of the Wings drafting skills. Okay so they got “lucky” with their drafting? I’m not from Hockeytown but it also takes good coaching and letting players develop. I disagree CB with your piece that somehow or another they would have drafted them sooner. Well with any draft you draft the best player available at that position. Maybe they didn’t have them listed any higher than that. They also don’t always know the quantity they are getting right away. So in that sense you are right CB but again I think that this reads more like spoiled grapes that the Wings got the players and the Isles have traded away top players by draft picks. I just honestly don’t really get it, so they late round players to develop into a championship team? They obviously had a plan and went with it.
Ya gotta be good to be lucky!
This may be the most well written hockey article I’ve ever read, in that the author establishes his argument, one which counters that which has been traditional thinking, then clearly and cogently proves that argument. As a former English teacher, I am consistently disappointed with many hockey writers; this time, I’m all smiles. Thanks to Mr. Botta.
Interesting that the author chooses to use the 4th round as his cutoff point and 1995. After all, look at these picks …
Franzen 2004 3/97
Holmstrom 1994 10/257!
Filppula 2002 3/95
Lidstrom 1989 3/53
Osgood 1991 3/54
The core of the Red Wings (and the guys that have been with the organization for a long time) are guys that were drafted in the 3rd round and later. The guy who is probably the biggest reason that the Wings have transitioned out of the Yzerman years is Lidstrom and he was chosen in the 3rd round. As a matter of fact, since Yzerman, most of their #1 picks with the exception of Primeau (#3 overall) have been busts. Now, perhaps the 3rd round isn’t “a later round”, but the Wings have found success because of picking guys that GMs passed on at least a couple of times.
The key to the Wings success has been sticking with a core and letting their prospects develop until they were ready and ingrained in the Wings system.
As far as the Tavares/Hedman debate, Tavares is the sexier pick because he is an offensive wizard, but I am not sure that he is a franchise player, because he has not shown the ability to create his own offence. He is a very good scorer, but he is like Brett Hull - a guy that makes the best of a good situation. He will be successful with a strong supporting cast, but that isn’t always the case with a rebuilding team, and sometimes, it is better to build a foundational piece like Hedman who will make his teammates better rather than a guy like Tavares who can only produce when his supporting cast can help him out.
Ah, ok you make a pretty good point, but its not completely accurate. For one thing if you go back one more year to 1994 you can add Thomas Holmstrom to your list of late round draft picks (no. 257 1994 draft), who definately is, in your words, a “B list” player. Also, you missed young Johnathon Ericsson who is now taking a regular shift in the playoffs and could well be the next Wing All Star caliber player. He just happened to be the LAST player taken in the 2002 draft. Also, and you mentioned this only in passing, that the Wings have added to the club by all means, but failed to give details. Which are that they have added quality players no one else apprently wanted including Maltby, Draper, Lebda and Cleary. All B players as you say, although I would argue that Draper should be rated at least a B plus. So, all toll to include Quincy and Helms, that’s ten players off the current twenty man roster the Wings aquired that no one else apparently had the brains to want.