CAN ISLANDERS MANAGEMENT MEASURE UP?
Scout departure reflects gap between NYI and TML
For the last three years, former LA Kings defenseman Rob Cowie was a part-time scout in the West for the Islanders. The scout they call Cowboy was known for being a top “information man.” He also made recommendations that played a part in the acquisitions of Jack Hillen and other prospects.
I use the past tense because I received an email from a friend in Toronto that the Maple Leafs recently hired Cowie as a full-time pro scout.
This story is not so much about Cowie, who earned his big opportunity. His hiring by Toronto came at the same time I was thinking about the enormous difference in scope in the hockey operations of Brian Burke’s Maple Leafs and the Islanders. As NHL haves like Toronto demonstrate, the salary cap does not prohibit franchises with deep pockets and a willingness to spend from investing in management. In baseball, the Yankees spend more money than the Kansas City Royals not just on prospects, but on scouting them.
This wide gulf between the hockey operations of the Islanders and the Maple Leafs (and the Red Wings and the Flyers and plenty of other money-makers) may not guarantee victories and championships, but those investing wisely are putting their franchises in the best position to flourish.
With the Islanders, Cowie was a part-timer, a “bird-dog” as they used to say in the scouting business. For the thrill and privilege of being in the game, these men work regular jobs (Cowie is in real estate) and scout games locally at night and often travel on the weekends. They use the vacation time from their “real” jobs to be able to attend training camps and scouting meetings. It’s not the most glamorous gig, but the PTers I know absolutely cherish what they do. For little pay, some of these scouts have become extremely valuable employees to their teams.
The Islanders have many part-timers all over North America, but very few full-timers in their hockey operations department. Limiting this discussion only to hockey management personnel that scout pro or amateur players - not developers such as Eric Cairns, or administrators - here is the Islanders’ full-time directory:
- GM Garth Snow
- Asst GM/Amateur scouting director Ryan Jankowski
- Pro scouting director Ken Morrow
- European director Vellu-Pekka Kautonen
- European scout Anders Kallur
- AHL/college scout Toby O’Brien
By comparison, here’s the full-time staff of the Maple Leafs:
- Bossman Brian Burke
- Senior VP Dave Nonis
- Player Personnel VP Dave Poulin
- Advisor Cliff Fletcher
- Assistant GM Jeff Jackson
- Pro Scouting director Mike Penny
- Pro scout Tom Watt
- Pro scout Rob Cowie
- Amateur scouting director Dave Morrison
- Chief European scout Thommie Bergman
- Scouts Garth Malarchuk, Mike Palmateer, Gary Harker, John Lilley, Nikolai Ladygin and Peter Ihnacak
I have not missed anyone on the Islanders. It’s possible I left out a few more Toronto full-timers. The Leafs also employ bird-dogs to fill in the gaps or add extra pairs of eyes.
In reality, do you need that many minds to draft Nazem Kadri 7th overall? Of course not. Then again, you and I could have drafted John Tavares first overall. In the end, it’s all about finding the right players. Mark Streit seems to be a better buy than Mike Komisarek, so there’s a clear victory for the Islanders over the quantity of the Leafs. We’ll know over time if moving up to take Calvin de Haan and then drafting two goalies with the first picks of the second and third rounds was the way to go.
Brian Burke is able to surround himself with experienced, quality professionals. Maybe all those full-time scouts and seasoned pros are the difference in making that brilliant late-round pick or IDing a gem as a trade throw-in. Maybe it’s the difference between the Leafs, and not the Islanders, finding that elusive next Henrik Zetterberg. You certainly can’t accuse Burke in this case of trying to make it all about him. Just as it has helped Detroit become the touchstone franchise of the NHL, hiring the most accomplished people possible figures to serve the Maple Leafs well in the long run.
One hopes that as the Islanders grow and place a Lighthouse shovel in the ground, depth can be added to the hockey operations staff. Instead of developing the Rob Cowies, only to see them get a better opportunity elsewhere, they can hold on to them.
Comments.
74 Responses to “CAN ISLANDERS MANAGEMENT MEASURE UP?
Scout departure reflects gap between NYI and TML”
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Very well written. It just seems to me that there is nowhere to go but up. How was it in the glory days though? How did they measure up then? Has it gotten steadily worse?
You are gods gift to the New York Islanders. This was amazing, and I can’t believe this information.
However, Mr. Botta, have you thought about this: While all this nonsense goes on, the Islanders continue to pave the technological blogosphere by funding amazing individuals like you to not only serve us this information, to do so without their “If’s” and “Buts”. In Toronto, there are 1,000 hockey minds who share useless blabber about their current team.
There is only one Chris Botta, and you are a New York Islander through and through. For all the accredited hockey minds that surround Brian Burke, most of them likely stop at your blog once a day.
It may not put a winning team on the ice for the Islanders, ever, by having you serve as a mentor and guidance to Islander fans and NHL fans around the world. We will, however, lost a greater hockey mind than Mr. Cowies if you ever leave writing to those who are blessed to read your work.
Great read, C.B. The Islanders are not even in the same league as these big market teams. Scouting is just one example of this.
nice article. i really hope this lighthouse goes through, it opens up a whole new way on the hockey and non hockey front
That is shocking the Isles staff has gotten so small. Wasn’t it pretty large during the MIlbury/Gordie Clark era (not that it did the team much good). Shocked.
“Then again, you and I could have drafted John Tavares first overall. ”
And while we’ll never really know for sure how much we affected things… some may argue that we did.
#4…Tavares being drafted had nothing to do with the fans.
If they based decisions on what the fans wanted then Jason Blake would still be an Islander for another yr or so for about 4 million a year.
CB- I am grateful for the more frequent posts, but I am curious by your more glass half full (realistic) approach. I am by no means drinking the koolaid, but I know our place in the NHL and we are a small mkt team with an owner trying to save $$ while the rebuild and Lighthouse take place. I am ok if we go with kids and build through the draft and I know this may be another difficult season, but maybe its better to have a leaner scouting staff. Sometimes too many opinions can create paralysis by analysis and if Jankowski is the rising star we think he is they can do this with a smaller staff. I am sure the Leafs have always had a large staff and look where its gotten them. Same can be said for the Habs. I thing this team is on track to win 5-10 more games with the improved goaltending and another year under Gordon.I love our prospects, and I think over time this team will grow into a championship club under SnoJanks..
this current team reminds me of the late 90’s where things were picking up..we never got to see what that nucleus could do but with patience
love your blog, hope it lives on
i hope everyone saw the essay by Mark Feinsand in the Daily News, great read, LETS GO ISLES
you get what you pay for–unfortunately with the isles at this time, this doesnt bode well as luck plays more of a role in drafting with this organization–Until as this article mentioned, we put shovels in the ground and build suites, banish SMG and get revenues flowing–there isnt a budget for this team to go to the next level–Im sure the Isles budget would grow with better cash flow which is yeaars away–if so..
I’ll repeat the obvious - until the LH is approved and developed this team is not spending serious money on or off the ice.
CB you are the best. However, the more an Isles fan looks at the situation (Arena, Scouting, Trainers, Players, etc) It is a very bleak situation. Normally I am an upbeat fan even in the face of disaster. In recent seasons the Isles are at an all time low and do not even belong in the NHL. It is especially difficult when we see our neighbor in NYC doing so much to try to make their team successful (not working but at least they are trying) I think that the Isles have extremely weak management and Wang is bailing until he gets a Lighthouse. Even then, we will not sell out games like the Garden. So it is a sdtalemate-fans only go to see teams that have a chance and owners only invest on teams that they can get their ROI. Hopeless……
I love you cb but I have to disagree with you 100% on this one. The maple leafs have had very few good prospects over the last 10 years…Matt Stajan was the best prospect in their organization for a couple of years! The Red Wings found Lidstrom in 89 and it wasn’t because the had the biggest army, it was because they had good eyes for talent…Neil Smith was one. I’d rather have 5 good guys pointing out the gems than have an army pointing out crap. Rangers have done possibly a worse job than the Isles over the last 15 years of drafting and i’m sure they employ more too. PS: if toronto is a “Have” then how come they have to pick up our droppings: Blake??
Great article CB! More evidence (in addition to the fact that the Isles team payroll each year is at the salary cap minimum) that the Islanders owner only cares about the real estate (over) development and nothing about the Islanders who he is simply using (and its fans) to try and get the (undeserved) governmental approvals for it.
Thanks for continuing to write.
Very interesting…eye opening, really. This is why your point of view is so intriguing. Average Joe doesn’t get to see the management perspective past the GM, so getting a look at the other side of the curtain is great. I thought all the Islander names like Jankowski, Kallur, etc. were just the important pieces…apparently they’re the only pieces.
Isn’t it sort of like this with everything, even when the Isles aren’t the ones writing the checks? Our announcers are the minor leagues for MSG, our newspaper writers are the minor leagues for other beats, our scouts are the minor leagues for other teams…and our team is the minor leagues for veteran players looking to ressurect their careers. The bloggers are about the only first-rate thing about the organization. Hopefully that changes in my lifetime.
Burke, Nonis, PB favorite Dave Poulin and several members of their staff have been in TO for less than 6 months. I wouldn’t judge them on Leaf mistakes of the past…CB
i have to disagree as well. who cares if you have a bunch of full time scouts. Isles have anders in Europe making his rounds and jawnowski has plenty of time to make his way around league during year. You said it yourself. Isles found Streit. Anders found Frans Nielsen. Sometime too many eyes and opinions is a bad thing.
If Rob Cowie’s best find was Jack Hillen, Dont worry i wont lose any sleep over it.
If more than half of group of DeHaan, Trivino, Figren, Petrov, Hamonic, DiBo, Donovan, Joenssu, and Martin work out to be good players. No Islander fan will be complaining.
great…
This is sad. I hope Wang will shoot the locks off the wallet when the LHP comes to fruition. The Isles are a revolving door.
Can’t say I know the details of NHL revenue sharing, but reading this piece makes me again think about how ridiculous it is that the Isles do receive shared revenue funds from the NHL (I believe simply because of their TV deal). If the Isles aren’t a small market team in this league, I am not sure what is.
not to be a negative nancy but maybe this is why the islanders have done a poor job at drafting in recent history?
I really don’t mind not having such an extensive scouting department. Too many talking heads. We will find out in a few years if the quality of quantity approach has worked for the isles. So far Snow and his scouts have made some pretty bold moves in the draft, i.e: moving back for bails and moving up for de haan. The Leafs aren’t really the perfect picture of scouting and development either. It seems as if they have been in a constant state of rebuild ever since Mogilny left. Alex Steen, Matt Stajan, Nik Antropov were all billed as top prospects and Antropov has been the only one to produce but is a 6′5 scorer who found his was out of toronto.
Oh and the real gap between the Isles and the Leafs: 30th and 24th place, John Tavares and Nazem Kadri.
Sometimes too many cook sspoil a pot, and sometimes not. I think once we get the lighthouse up and going, and once we start winning the landscape will change. But lets not forget that Snow is digging his way out of years of Mad Mikes messes. And so far so good ( much better than its been ). And a shout out to Mike in S.Fla a fellow pointblanker I met while in Fl. small world made smaller by this website.
I really don’t think it’s that big a deal. Florida Marlins have won 2 world series titles, Tampa Rays made it to the world series… etc. The Mets with as big a spending budget as any team but the Yankees and Dodgers… enough said.
Good inside stuff. But,please don’t mention the city of Kansas City,even if your talking about the Royals. lol
honestly not intimidated by the leafs management team regarding scouting .
where they do worry me is with their influence on how the game is played on the ice .
Well for being such a mecca of hockey, and deep pockets, and all those hockey minds, it clearly hasnt translated to success for the Maple Leafs.
I like Kallur as a player, but I wonder about his ability as a scout. Few European prospects, if at all, ever panned out for us in recent years.
CB, AWESOME entry/find. The ills that continue to plague the New York Islanders go deeper than a bad lease & Kate Murray. You get what you put into something. You put squat into scouting, you get squat out. Picking John Tavares at #1 is not good scouting…taking Parise at 15 or so? THAT’S good scouting.
It’s VERY fair to question Isles management on this.
The worst recent scouting/management decision was not taking Parise over a much raved about and overated European player who is still developping. You all the name.
PS sorry for leaving out You all know the name.
Since the Rebuild is just on its second year it is kind of early to judge the scouts. I would give it more time and then put them on the plate.
Anyway, it is much more fun to open IPB and find new staff instead stearing on the same article over and over again. Welcome back CB!
Wonderful article Chris; thanks for continuing your posts.
On the one hand, I think any organization needs to avoid having too many cooks in the kitchen. Quality can be more important than quantity. For example, why on earth do the Leafs have Fletcher on the payroll? The guy is way past his prime. I can’t see how he contributes anything positive to their operation. On the other hand, it is shocking that we do not employ more full-time scouts. For a team in a full blown rebuilding phase, scouting is the most important long-term investment for this franchise. I am very disturbed to learn that the Isles rebuild relies upon part-time employees.
If you look at all the stars in the NHL, the majority are picked in the 1st two-three rounds of the draft. I’m not convinced that Toronto has a significant advantage over the Isles. Maybe with their lean staff, the Isles didn’t have the resources to study their 5th round options. But how often is the 5th round pick a difference maker?
I think its quality over quantity as im sure the Cablevision Rangers probably have as much wasted staff as Toronto. Not sure if we have the quality either. CB, the KC reference is rather ironic. We are in the biggest market in the NHL, and our team is alot closer to winning the Calder Cup then the Stanley…
Great read CB. I feel spoiled. I still think Kadri was a reach. With the Isles reaching for De Haan, it would be a great compliment for the staff if he could really become a good player
btw, regarding Parise pick in ‘03, a lot of teams passed him up (even teams with large scouting departments). The Rangers picked Jessiman (from Darien CT) with the 12 pick. He’s now playing for the Nasville AHL affiliate. Congrats to Devils on a great pick, but sometimes a little luck is involved.
the entire operation is in a bare-bones holding pattern. not surprising at all, and not something to criticize. if the owner gets his arena and the extras, and then doesn’t invest, then there’s a problem. but i’d be shocked if that happens. it may be gradual, but the reins will be loosened (if) and when the work begins and tavares is scoring bunches of goals. also, i don’t know near as much as others here seem to, but my guess is that one really sharp scout is worth 10 lesser ones.
CB: ways thought that we did not have the coverage we needed accross the globe. Seems like your post may partially explained 3 players drafted from Sarnia in 2 drafts….Falling in love with DeHaan while watching Tavares-passing on higher rated Kulilov and Moore.
what about the draft in the late 80’s/early 90’s….3 consecutive defensemen picked from Memorial Cup winning Kamloops (Holland, Lukowich, Strudwick) Sure seems like limited resouces lead to limited viewings. I would hate to think that All those Bad Euro Picks were due to lack of scouting US development a few years back IE Nillson or Parise.
Some really good background information here Chris (again!)….a bit depressing, but good info nonetheless…
Mike (#13) - You’ve made your point…in fact you’ve made the same point over and over again since you don’t seem to have another one to make. I don’t know about anyone else here, but whatever you say, I automatically believe the opposite. At this point Charles doesn’t only care about the real estate, except as a way to keep the team going AND recover some of the hundreds of millions of bucks he’s pour into the franchise (without which there wouldn’t have been one left). He bid competitively for the right to develop the county property and owns much of the property around it. Perhaps you believe that Charles is obligated to continue operating the team in an eyesore surrounded by absolutely nothing and pouring money into it forever, but I, among many others, believe that Charles has the right to recover what he’s already dumped and even start to become profitable (and doing it without taxpayer money). Once there’s the hope of making money, then he’ll spend on the team, otherwise kiss it goodbye.
Sorry Chris, but someone had to counter hit (only) point.
@#43
He mentioned Toby O’Brien and I would assume the rest are part time as CB would know.
I thought Mario Saraceno was FT as well. Certainly seems like we need another FT scout for Canada.
I wish I could be a pro scout for an NHL team. Geez.
I think the Isles can measure up in the scouting department -esp if they are picking top 3 next year too
Time will tell - but I think we have uncovered some good players in the past two drafts.
Was wondering what people felt about the E. Laikin story in Newsday today w.r.t. Lighthouse?
re argument between geduffer and mike. It will be settled when and if Wang gets the LH ok. If he opens up his wallet after the ok then geduffer is right and if inspite of approval he basically continues being very tight with the team then Mike is right. Most of us hope geduffers point is correct but until then let’s face it most of the posts on all aspects of this blog and team are really about this issue either directly or indirectly so let everyone ramble on about this subject because I’m not sure what even Wang is thinking or guessing about, at this juncture.
Picking Parise in the draft was not just “luck,” as one poster said. It was a slam dunk, common sense move. One could say that almost “the entire league passed on drafting” the kid, but the fact is that the Islanders — ESPECIALLY the Islanders — SHOULD HAVE drafted him. The blood line ALONE mandated that. Andres Kallur should have lost his job for that alone, let alone for drafting another soft European kid (Nilsson) with “pure crap” written all over him. I maintain that we sold our souls for those four cups way back when, and we can forget about EVER getting another one.
Great piece, Chris - thank you!
For those who get NHLNetwork, some good news :
NHL Network will televise the Isles-Canucks pre-season game on 9/14 at 10pm.
Chris, we are grateful for your articles. Thanks a bunch. geduffer (44) I agree with you. Chuck has every right to try to make himself whole. He is not in this for charity. We can only hope that things turn around and starts putting some $ into the team. I am not blaming him so much as the situation that is a complete quagmire. How great would it be to be competitive. And just think of how difficult it is for the players to come out and play 80 games knowing the team is the laughing stock of the league. People up north don’t even consider the Isles an NHL team. I really believe if we played in the AHL we would have difficulty beating some of the teams.
Different teams have different needs at different times. Those with larger staffs are not guaranteed of higher amounts of success than those with lesser personnel. A great example above, made by Doc, proves that. Year in and year out, there are teams that exceed expectations … and those that fail to live up to them. While it would be great to say that 1) the Isles will hire more full-time staff, and 2) it will guarantee success, the reality is that the true success of the team comes down to the performance of play on the ice from those who our current staff has already chosen. If those players succeed, then it matters not how many people in the front office chose them.
Tom (25), enjoyed meeting you as well down here — Was a definite pleasure discussing the Isles with a fellow PBer while on vacation in Orlando!
Hey Jim- what big success is going on up north that makes them able to laugh at anyone? The Isles knocked plenty of teams up north out of playoff spots in the last decade… is that magically forgotten now because they have had a rough 2 years?
The Islanders are not “the laughingstock of the league” to anyone but Rangers fans, who would say that regardless. They are rebuilding, just like any other team has done at times. Come on.
This is called once again “Cost Cutting” and keeping payroll down. Wang has been doing it for years and now people are starting to get it.
Let’s face the fact, Charles Wang Gutted the Scouting staff years ago and like always it went under the code of Silence. Last year I wrote in one of your posts about it and you deleted me. I guess because your life line was cut you now are being a little bit more forward and hopefully you won’t delete this.
Like you mention part-timers it is exactly what the Islanders are to Charles Wang, plain and simple. And you can bet that this will go on until he gets an Approval and if he does get the approval Wang will continue in this matter because, He still will be losing money until the completion and Charles Wangs money will be all tied up In this LightHouse and this could last a decade.
People need to wake up and see the big picture! Please don’t delete this CB.
Good coolaid for thought. When Wang starts seeing a positive ROI then we can compare plans with the deep pocket teams. Otherwise, stay the course and bring a championship to LI.
For any of you Fans who believe that Charles Wang will spend Big and open the Wallet so to speak, you are in dream land! You are only foolin yourself. Remember Wang will not make money until the Lighthouse is up and running. That is when revenue will come in, for the rest of Wangs money will be tied up in the project. Remember the Islanders are not profitable.
Hey #50, it sounds like you have some inside info, maybe you even work for the isles. I get your point but you you come across as a whining 4 year old.
I’m not defending Wang, but there is such a thing as pride in ownership. Example, owning a car rather than leasing one. I think Wang loves owning a pro team. Even the NHL and the lowly Isles still has some luster in the world of sports. Otherwise he just another business man among many others instead of being part of an exclusive club. Is this worth losing 20 M a year? Yes so far=apparently but not forever. My guess is that he will open up his wallet [some] soon after approval even though it has been correcly stated that profits from the LH are probably a decade away.
#51 the teams up north respect the 4 strips we wear on the shoulder more than alot of fans on the Island. Thats part of the pride of ownership I mentioned in post 58.
Why do the post #’s change, I was refering to “Pablo”, sorry
#7….that comparison is not even close to being valid.
Like I have been saying our management sucks and there is not win at all costs desire to win. That is because Wang is NOT a hockey lover.
Wang doesn’t LIKE losing $20mil a year, but he CAN afford it. He’s a businessman and he only has so much patience staying with a bad investment. And the Islanders thus far have been a poor investment for him. Let’s hope the LH happens. He’ll be happy if it does and I believe he’ll make additional investments in the team.
Actually, I heard Cowboy played in Europe with Streit and was the one scout saying “this is the guy we need to sign”! If that’s true, we are really gonna miss this guy!
I agree with Jim 11, Mike 13 and disagree with geduffer’s POV. The scary thing is Wang has closed the wallet even with Tavares here giving him no help.
i totally understand wangs reluctance to spend any more $ then he has to. But for a rebuilding team you need to spend $ in your scouting department. it’s a shame that they chose to save some $ by cutting back on the scouting department. i sure do hope that this changes as soon as there’s a shovel in the ground.
nice article
I’d be interested in how much investing in scouting really pays off (ie big budget torontos&Rangers vs smaller budget Islander like teams).
Baseball is bad comparison with a huge prospect pool, coverage is a problem and a big budget will buy it for you.
North American Hockey prospect world is a few dozen universities and a few elite junior league. I’d imagine Europe is the same. Not that hard to cover it all with a small staff. Plus only 7 rounds a year
Very very few past the 3rd round ever impact in the NHL. I’d say good decision making is more relevant then a large staff. Love to see an actual analysis on that though
This is why we need this site. No one else keeps the entire islanders organization honest like Chris and Islanders Point Blank. No one brings the fans closer to the organization either.
I sincerely hope the organization comes around keeps this blog right here the way it has been for the last year.
This is the kind of information that is the reason I check in here daily for. No newscaster or sportscaster in this town would ever provide this kind of stuff. Thanks.
Sadly the post just confirms what I’ve been noticing all along. That Mr. Wang is just treading water trying to keep the team mediocre so he can get what he’s looking for. Not that I blame him…but I just want to point out that all the wishful thinking around here everytime some big name coach or free agent becomes available is just pure crapola. We will continue to try to make chicken salad out of chicken s…
CB this is my third and last post on this thread- the limit! We are all having a good time, an escape from the real world for all of us,thanks for what you do. We all understand that for you this is not a fun outlet but your livelyhood. We all hope you can continue your blog, but more importantly that you find a good and rewarding position in an area that will support your family and maybe still find time to share your hockey knowledge with us.
you get what you put in..investing in management is just as important as investing free agents
Not concerned about losing Cowie to the Leafs. After all they have Dave Nonis as the 2nd top dog and he is terrible at evaluating talent. If anyone is still upset with moving up twice to grab deHaan, please check out Patrick White!!!
Tony F. - Ding Ding Ding!! I think you’re right about inside information.
I’d have to see another couple of years of play before I can really make a decision on the scouting question. Maybe they do have enough and more might be overkill. I have no idea. Good subject to make us think about though.
And can I just say I’m glad that Royal Carribean ad wasn’t there this time because I can’t help clicking on it every time. Have any of you ever gone in and looked at all the different boats and their amenities? Woooowwwww……wanderlust.
Queen Kate was out shaking hands at the RVC train station this morning. Let’s hope that she and her minions get into the office on time today and start moving the zoning process along - instead of playing on their blackberrys all day!
CB Kate Murray is at the RVC train station. Her staffers acted like there was a celebrity on the platform…i snubbed her and told her staff she needs to approve the LH first.
A lot of people are quick to attack Wang and Co for cost-cutting. Frankly, the situation using “bird-dogs” has worked out well enough so far.
The real question should be, “Did Cowie even approach the islanders about matching the Toronto offer?”
Perhaps it is a wake-up call that the Isle’s have to worry about that level of staff being poached by other teams much like offer sheets for RFAs.