THE TRUE COST FOR CALVIN de HAAN:
Campoli, a 2nd round pick, two 3rds and a 4th
In February, the Islanders traded Chris Campoli and Mike Comrie to Ottawa for the Senators’ first round pick in the 2009 draft and Dean McAmmond. Comrie and McAmmond, minor pieces to the deal, are gone from their respective teams. For this discussion, they are out of the equation.
This left the deal as Campoli for a first round pick - a nice price for Garth Snow and the Islanders, as we stated the day the trade was made. But then the final tally gets interesting.
The first round pick the Islanders acquired from Ottawa was San Jose’s. That pick was the 26th overall. On the night of the first round, the Islanders decided Oshawa defenseman Calvin de Haan was the player they had to draft at any cost. The Islanders moved from pick No. 26 to 16 by trading the following: overall picks 26, 37, 62 and 92. (They brought back pick 77 in the deal).
Not convinced they moved far enough to lock in de Haan, the Islanders traded from pick 16 to 12. They gave Minnesota the just-acquired 77 plus pick 82 to move to 12. (For the record, I was told by a Minnesota scout that the Wild wanted U.S. dman Nick Leddy - who they took at 16 - all along).
In summing up the dealings, let’s throw out picks 16, 26 and 77 since they were acquired and re-packaged. By my math - and anyone who saw my Regents scores will understand that I am very open to discussion on this - the final tally on the Chris Campoli trade looks like this:
Islanders acquire:
Calvin de Haan
Islanders trade:
Chris Campoli
2nd round pick (37th overall)
3rd round pick (62nd overall)
3rd round pick (82nd overall)
4th round pick (92nd overall)
This morning, I checked my deductive reasoning and math with an assistant GM in the league, plus a statistician who’s brilliant at this sort of thing. Much to my surprise, the facts checked out clean. The assistant GM said I should also factor in that de Haan might have been there at least at pick 20. I can’t go for that, because no one can tell you they know for sure. I only know Minnesota was not taking him at 16.
Then he told me I should also weigh the de Haan pick against the many talented prospects the Islanders could have taken if they just stayed at 26. His point, of course, is that the deal could have been just Campoli straight up for Kyle Palmieri or Dylan Olsen or Carter Ashton or Simon Despres or Landon Ferraro or Ryan O’Reilly or Zach Budish. It also could have been Campoli straight up for de Haan. It’s probably not fair to go there because then you’re getting into mind-reading.
The bottom line is the Islanders traded Campoli for a first round pick and then their unique scouting system - with some big hits and big misses since it began in June of 2006 - led them to pay the additional price of 4 top-100 draft selections for de Haan.
Calvin is the odds-on favorite to emerge in five years as the best player in the trade. He certainly has the head and the hands, as Rangers personnel director Gordie Clark told me the other night about Michael Del Zotto. The major question about de Haan is whether he can add some strength and bulk to what is a very thin frame.
All that matters is that Snow, Ryan Jankowski and the big players at their draft table need to be right about Calvin de Haan eventually becoming a top-pair defenseman on a contending NHL team. At the very least, his career better blow away Chris Campoli’s.
122 Responses to “THE TRUE COST FOR CALVIN de HAAN:
Campoli, a 2nd round pick, two 3rds and a 4th”
Please Wait
you can’t evaluate this one for at least 3 years. Da Haan is 2 year away from his NHL debut, but his brief exhibition this season was encouraging. I wont get too upset about the loss of campoli. hes at best a 3rd dman, but more likely a 4th dman.
Chris, What’s even more Mind Boggling is that they could’ve had that 2-3 DMan for just the cost of signing him to a Contract. Matt Gilroy was there for the taking. It was quite a Snowjob that Garth didn’t overbid for this Long Island kid with Size and Skill, then we could’ve taken the #26 and added depth! Bonehead Snow!!
I like him and think he will do better than campoli
They got the player they wanted. Bottom line. 3rd and 4th round picks mean nothing in the NHL. Very few of those picks make it. Good trade by the Isles to get the player they wanted.
If he pans out and is a top pair defensemen it was well worth it. He is is a top 4 defensemen then i think it is probably even. If he is a bust, then the trade was a bust. I never thought that much of campoli.
Hey, when you see a player who stands out to you, you do whatever you can to get him. Obviously this kid looked reeeeally special to Garth & Co.
The Isles clearly overpaid for a guy that was rated to go in the Original San Jose Spot. Minnesota still got Leddy and Columbus traded right back into the 20’s, shocked that John Moore was still there. combine that with taking the “too early” pick of the Jumbo Goalie….The Islanders blew most of the draft after JT. As it was Detriot traded down to get Ferrarro….meaning Isles could have ended up with DeHaan OR Moore AND Depres….Isles should have ended up with at least 1 more high end prospect. Calcin needs to be a top 2 guy by the time his entry level deal expires, or it does not amke any sense.
i was never a campoli fan. i was happy when we traded him. de haan seems like a perfect fit for the type of team that snow/gordon want to build. their philosophy seems to be to identify the players that they need and then go out and get them. they did the same thing with bailey the year before. they also might not have minded trading picks since there is the 50 player under contract limit.
one more thing… i believe it was buffalo that wanted de haan. the look on regiers face when we drafted him said it all. they like their offensive d-men. eg. brian campbell.
I would have took a risk with my original picks and seen it he was still around. There were plenty of top tier prospects that would have feel into the isles laps. I still like the diamonds in the rough late picks, we could have grown our pool a bit more. Only way i would have traded down soooo much if i was to draft a kid that was nhl ready.
The scouting dept is betting their collective reputation on de Haan given the many pieces used to acquire him. This is one of those instances where, like an NFL coach going for the winning TD instead a field goal to tie, the scouting dept and Snow will either be looked at as geniuses making the bold but calculated move or yet another set of foolish risk takers following their egos instead of following conventional wisdom.
As an aside, Campoli asked to be traded, so his actual value to the Isles at the time was zero. Even if he turns into a top d-man (doubtful) can’t blame Snow for letting a player go when the player decides he wants out.
Can’t evaluate it now. It all depends on what those picks turn into and what de Haan turns into. Its early, but he looks like he can be a good one
never said i didnt like this pick but the price semed like a huge overpayment
I’m still more peeved with the Isles decision to trade down to 9 from 5 in the 2008 draft. How much sicker would our offense look with Nikita Filatov instead of Josh Bailey, who I’m not sold on at all.
Hockeysfuture.com currently has Filatov as the 3rd overall NHL prospect with Tavares at number 1. I would have liked the looks of that. Bailey has A LOT to prove.
Wasnt there an article that de Haan was pair with Del Zotto last year and out played him the whole year in defence and offense??
The prices seems high.
However - I have read somewhere by some big sports GM (can’t remember who) that the team that gets the best player always wins the trade. If DeHaan turns out to be the best player of this group (Campoli, the #2, the 2 #3s, and the #4) then it was a good trade.
We won’t know the answer for at least 3-4 years.
I am not going to second guess them at this point. I have only heard great things about Calvin. I was impressed with what I saw in preseason. I am going to trust them on this one.
As far as the rest of the draft, at least one of the goalies we drafted will become a solid backup and the other can be used as a asset to acquire talent in the future if DP is able to turn around his career and stay healthy.
CB - Next evaluation should be taking Koisken with the 1st pick in the 2nd round and passing on Ryan O’Reilly & Landon Ferraro (??)
I was encouraged (tremendously) by what I saw in de Haan during the pre-season. The kid (quickly) demonstrated his skating and stick-handling abilities as well as his cool, calm nature. I think the sky is the limit for this kid.
I do recognize that they gave up an awful lot to acquire the assurance that they would land him. I haven’t however seen enough of the players that they passed on to evaluate like for like (e.g., Leddy).
One obvious not Chris — just like the Isles say they had intel that de Haan would have been gone by 26, and also by 16 (propoganda?), you’re printing the same propoganda from a Minn. point of view. Do you actually think that scout would say “We didn’t really target Leddy. He was the best player available by the time we picked.”?
Come on now.
The price does seem high, but I remember that during the draft there were rumblings that Minnesota was going to draft de Haan. Of course, the draft is a gamble and game for GMs. No one tells the other guy what they will do, they instead rely on giving off false impressions to make the other guy give up more (like in poker). CB, you know now that Minn was going to take Leddy, but is the Minn guy being honest? Or does he just not want to alienate Leddy? Perhaps he is honest, whatever. Garth gambled because if he hadn’t and they took de Haan and de Haan turns out to be great (fingers crossed) then Islander fans complain that not enough was done to secure a player like him. It’s lose-lose for the scouting department.
Could the Isles have signed Gilroy? I thought I read that Gilroy’s agent expressed no interest in talking to the Islanders. If that is true, what can a GM do? You can’t force a player to sign your contract.
I probably can’t make an accurate evaluation of de Haan’s game at the present moment, since I only saw him play in the Oilers preseason game, but I have to say, I noticed him in good ways without knowing him by number beforehand. He made some beautiful passes, and skated well. It’s probably going too far to say he looked like a “mini Streit,” but he’s the closest the Isles currently have to that. Was it worth all they gave up? Hey, Snojanks! said they heard he might be taken, so you gotta take them at their word I guess. Straight yes or no answer? I’m going to say yes, it was worth it. I think de Haan will turn out to be what Campoli and Gervais were supposed to be.
While I am hoping the De Haan emerges as a top 4 d-man, I still would have liked to hae the bruising pwer forward Kassian there.
As has been the case, you can fill out top 4 d men.
If De Haan turns out to be top pairing, then I will of course put some ketchup on my cap.
As I’ve posted on here, using the NFL draft pick value chart for comparison, de Haan cost the Isles the equivalent of the overall no. 5 draft pick. He’d better turn to be a top-pair D-man with a fairly lengthy career.
“The major question about de Haan is whether he can add some strength and bulk to what is a very thin frame”. I can’t see why not. When I was 18 years old in my senior season playing defense for my highschool hockey team I was 6′2″ and 175lbs. I was a stick with no muscle or bulk. I went to college, saw a nutritionist, and lifted weights. By the time I graduated (this is while playing hockey for 3 years) I was 205lbs and all muscle. Some kids take longer to fill out than others but everyone eventually does if they work at it. I don’t see Calvin as being lazy or a kid who is not focused on acheiving goals, he will get there.
UIF, I can’t see how you’re giving up on Gervais at such a young age. Mark my words, the kid is going to suprise a lot of people in the next few years.
Is it me or do we look for an opportunity too often to bash the isles on EVERYTHING!!! If they passed on De haan and he becomes a star, chris is writing the same article bashing the isles for not trading up with all of the extra picks they had. he would have listed what each guy has done that we drafted and talked about what we could have had in De Haan. I realize on paper this looks lopsided, we just gotta let it play out. De Haan almost made the team. How many 18 years olds DON’T need to fill out. Look at Baily this year vs last. Big difference.
Oh, not giving up on Gervais altogether. I was one of his few defenders early last year. I just don’t think he’ll ever be anything close to the offensive threat they thought he’d be. As of now, my entirely amateur opinion is he’ll be a 4-6 defenseman who can make that first nice outlet pass out of the zone.
Have a better career then Chris Campolli? Done! De Haan showed he is already better then any vet d-man the Isles have except Streit. That from an 18 year old skinny kid.
De Haan needs to hire a dietian right away to help him get the proper nourishment while he’s hitting the weights. Get him up to 200 and he’ll be an excellent NHL D-man. Get him up to 210 and WOW!
I really like De Haan and I think everyone here knows I was crushed when they passed on Kassian (who they could still use). The more we learned about De Haan the more he played the more you see they have potentially added the blue chip d-man they didn’t have in the organization.
That being said because Snow still hasn’t addressed size and toughness (especially on defense) he really needs to do that via trade. Not just for current NHL guys but it is time to clean out the smurf d-men in the organization. Package Kohn, Katic, Spurgon, MacDonald, and even Hillen with other assests and bring back big mean dudes with talent who have a shot of playing for the Isles. Of the names above Hillen is the only one who does and you can only have so many small puck movers. GARTH SNOW PLEASE READ THAT LAST SENTANCE AGAIN AND REPEAT TO YOURSELF SEVERAL TIMES PER DAY.
I wonder if they sent Wrecker down because Niel could be hurt? I have no idea if he is playing or fighting after Lucic gave him one of the worst beatings I’ve ever seen in hockey late in preseason.
I pray for the day when Wrecker, Martin, and Joensuu are full timers (with a better defense).
LMAO with all the super-GM’s in here. None of us know where Calvin would have went. I find it VERY hard to believe that a kid with his talent would have been there at 26th. Not only do I doubt it, I’d bet that he wouldn’t be.
He was our best defensive prospect in camp, and had people talking that he should stay. I doubt very highly that a kid of his talent would have just SAT around at the draft for the Islanders.
But all of you know more. Snow sucks, he’s the worst GM ever.
i think he will be better than campoli however the isles should have stayed at 16 and added some midrange talet with later picks…. we can only hope snow was right
after giving this some thought, giving up a 2nd, two 3rds, and a 4th to move up from 26 to 12 in a great draft doesn’t seem like an overpayment. seems about right. i am not including campoli in this payment b/c the isles are better off w/o him. de haan reminds me a lot of mark streit, which works for me.
Ottawa has Carkner doing the Enforcing right now. Big Dman about 6′4 220lbs. You know the direct opposite of the kind of guys we use 5′10 175lbs. It’s safe to say that Carkner WILL pummel any Islander in the game tomorrow. We currently have NO players that will come close to beating him in a fight. Bring back Rechlitz, so how important do you think the combined 6 goals by our current 4th line will be at the end of the year, will they be the difference in making us a playoff team? I highly doubt it, Bring back Rechlitz and stop worrying about a handful of goals by the 4th line, in the end it will mean very little in our team making or not making the playoffs.
Overpaid ….Pleasssse
Less then Half the players drafted after the 1st round ever play in the NHL and as far as impact players - very very rare.
Let’s take the example of the supposively examplary drafting organization: The Devils
From 2000-2002 they had 16 picks in rounds 2-4.
12 of those players never played significant time in the NHL
4 players did Only 2 or worth noting: Paul Martin and Michael Rupp
So there you go - Take a very real chance at losing what you think is the D-man you want vs a 1 in 16 chance you pick up a Paul Martin
The way they were dealing that day I could have sworn they were targeting Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson who i really really wanted.
I almost forgot to add about De Haan whats with the Islanders ALWAYS picking players that have almost NO size? I think Snow wants all players to be smaller than him? Lets get some people with size that are not afraid to use their size.
If you look at what we gave up to get him it does seem like a hefty price. However, if he turns out to be the player that the Isles obviously think he’ll become, the price is irrelevant. I’m willing to bet that more than a few of the player drafted in the #17 to #26 spots will not have long, illustrious NHL careers if they make it at all. I like the concept of targeting a player and then doing what it takes to get him rather than waiting to see what’s left over for you.
What price do you put on Campoli expressing his dissatisfaction in playing Gordon’s system - a system where he should have florished and didn’t - and voiced his displeasure of having Weight on the point on the power play? What price do you put on Campoli being subversive inside and outside the dressing room?
In comparing this trade, you must include the (teamates) ears that Campoli was bending. Teammates that the club wants to forster with this youth movement. Those words may have had the organization concidering a cancer and they removed its source before it spread. What price do you put on that?
The bottom line is Garth could’ve picked another high end forward but instead he decided to take Dehan at a premium…I didn’t like the move but now that we have DeHaan I am supportive and hope he turns into a great player…
I would like Bottas evaluation of taking Bailey instead of Filtov, another head scratcher at the time…I love Bailey but is he better than Filitov????
First and foremost, I’m rooting for Calvin to be a superstar
However, I think me and many others noted your equation on the night of the draft–which is one reason why so many of us had a sour taste in our mouths even after drafting Tavares. The deHaan dealings could turn out to be a gem, but in terms of market value on Draft night and the opportunity costs–it was stupid move in June and remains stupid now.
I’m no hockey expert, but until proven otherwise, I continue to believe our hockey brain trust resembles the Pirates more than the Penguins.
This was a clear case of poor asset management. It reminds me of the love affairs Milbury had with Kvasha, Parrish, Niinimaa and others that compelled him to constantly overpay with additional draft picks or players.
I’m hoping that deHaan becomes an impact player but this was a steep price to pay for an unproven player who was considered by most scouts to be a late 1st round pick.
You can NEVER tell what is going to happen in the future. They obviously felt he could very well be worth the price.
As for the “adding strength and bulk to a thin frame” comment, if that is the “major” question about de Haan that’s not so bad. There’s time. Most seem to feel he’ll be good. That’s a big plus.
Is anyone else surprised that that the Rangers have actually found 2 decent players in Del Zotto and Gilroy. Everyone seems to be raving about these guys and then i look at the Isles and wonder how could they have not put out an equally effective product. I am just compairing their D and ours. We do have Streit, the steal friom the UFA market and then what? Hillen doesn’t look like he’ll get much playing time. If he is going to turn out to be something special remains to be seen. De Hann really needs to be a gem when he finnally plays or else we don’t have much coming up from development. This coming years draft I think should be focused on big D men and big scoring wingers. No more drafting goalies!
Garth is such a terrible GM. I can create a blog and make tons of posts just on all the bad moves he has made over the last two years.
#37 I didn’t like Filitov coming out. I didn’t know much about Bailey because I was looking at guys rated higher but I would take Bailey over FIlitov anytime.
#32 & #35 OH, ya Carnker would beat the crap of any of the Isles. I forgot about him making Ott. Hope Niel isn’t playing too. I think the odd thing is even many of the Isles guys with size do not play like they have size.
I agree with you in that what the hell difference does it make if you scratch a bunch of 4th liner/AHL guys for an enforcer?
I am hoping Schremp turns his career around but HE COULDN’T BEAT OUT ROBERT NILSSON IN EDM. His play was so poor he could only get into 7 games because guys like Nilsson were outperforming him. Schremp has a TON to prove. It was worth the risk because it cost the Isles nothing but let’s not drag it out for years hoping he turns the corner one magical day.
I’m with you guys who thinks Geravis stinks! He’s had so many years to turn into a solid d-man and he appears to only be getting worse.
CJCB - all the players are smaller than Snow if you include his chest protector. I think Oleg Kvasha got lost inside it once, he thought it was the trainer’s room.
Part of this size issue is out of Snow’s control. If he and the scouts decide that the five best players available are all 5′ 10″ and 180 lbs, what can he do? He’s not going to deliberately draft large bad players. But he can draft the best available players and then move them when the time is right to obtain players who fit the type he doesn’t have - a couple of puck-moving defenders for a power forward, for example.
We’ll see. Joensuu may be ready next season; there’s always offseason deals and another draft.
The NHL draft is like a game of darts.
However, after each throw (draft pick), the next person throwing the dart takes one step backwards away from the board..
It is much easier to hit the bullseye from 1 foot away with the first pick (JT) than 12 feet away (de Haan).. and think how hard it becomes from 79 feet away with the 79th pick and beyond..
Easily worth it to give up a few 2nds and 3rds to go from 26 to 12.
The real question of Bailey Vs. Filitov is not which will be the better player, but will the other guys the isles picked up with the moves help the team? when it is all said and done, If bailey is a 60 pt player & Filatov is a 80 pt player, but the isles have a few more capable bodies, that is a wash.
the m.o. for the gor-sno system on D is quick guys that are really good passers. especially the first pass. hillen and dehaan fit that mold. but they better get some bigger and stronger guys too or it’ll be a disaster.
It’s not quite taking Nilsson over Parise, but I recall thinking it was a very high price to pay for a prospect many projected to go in the mid-20’s.
For me, it wasn’t so much the drafting of de Haan–who could turn out to be excellent. It was paying such a price to move up in the draft when you could speculate he still would’ve been there at #16, #26, etc.
I go back to what I said right after the draft. Take a look at every Islanders draft year by year. A great draft is two impact players, with maybe a third who fills a need. If Tavares and deHaan are both impact players and Koskinen becomes an NHL goaltender then that’s a successful draft.
If you have a lot of extra picks, better to move them for a player who you think will be an impact player than go through the motions of using the picks on players who will probably never make it. And deHaan looks like he will be a Scott Niedermeyer type defenseman.
Also, Isles had so many extra picks that they were still able to take Klementyev (who might fill a need as a defensive d-man) and take a flyer on Cizikas.
#9 You’re on to something. I think Snow knew Buffalo was planning to take de Haan. When the Isles picked him Snow looked over at the Sabre’s table with kind of a smirk on his face and as you say, Darcy looked stunned. Nice moment.
I hate all the MMQB on the draft. Wait a bunch of years. It’s all a crap shoot anyway, they’re 18 yo kids and no one (aside from a very few can’t miss picks) can tell you how any of these kids will pan out.
They took the player they wanted. They moved a few extra picks around. Maybe they thought the team picking 14 wanted him. Who knows. Who cares. He’s ours now and all that matters is making sure all the prospects are handled properly in their development to maximize whatever they turn into when they grow up.
Let us not forget, once players are drafted, they must be developed correctly. Part of it is on the scouts to pick the talent, part on the organization to develop it and put those players in right position. Have to get both right in order to be successful. Rest easy though, will have another top 5 pick this year to debate, which is ok in my mind as that is way is has to be until we get new arena.
I encourage those who feel the Isles overpaid to move up to look at the annual draft histories (hockeydb.com has a readily accessible section) and see how infrequently 3rd round picks and beyond materialize.
Win or lose, the Isles guys did what they had to do to get the guy they liked. In the end, it probably didn’t cost them much.
It was the right move if snow felt someone else was going to take him. Lots of people were mad about Kyle okposo being taken over another propect as well. Who on this site wouldn’t want Okposo today
I don’t understand people’s logic here
Some are saying we overpaid for DaHaan but then they compare Filatov vs Bailey straight up?
Remember they got Bailey and the picks they used for Corey Travino, arron Ness and Kirill Petrov plus a 3rd rounder in 2009 that helped pay for DaHaan
JKP in Halifax-couldn’t agree with you more! If you look at the draft, in any sport, there are always hits and misses. A GM’s job is to identify players who they feel will be the best fit for the team and the system. Each draft has its own characteristics, the 2008 draft had the big defensemen at the top of the draft that everyone covets, when they were gone Garth took Bailey and got some extra picks. This year he was able to go after a specific player because of these moves. We all hope de Haan pans out, only time will tell.
No matter how many players you take, there is no guarantee that he will make the NHL. However, if you can draft a top 2 d-man, you win!!
This organization will get a pass from me when it comes to Calvin. I am ok with what they gave up to get him. I do NOT give them a pass for using the first pick in the second round on an insurance policy for DP, when there are better options out there. They left too many quality fowards on the draft board for the other teams in the 2nd round.
1st off dehaan does look like a stud he just needs to get older and gain size. He showed us all he got the size poise speed skating and scoring touch in just few games in preseason. You don’t know where he could have gone 12,16 or 20. Isles must of feared he would be off board. Why not be safe than sorry.
We got our sure pick in tavares, got future top dman in dehaan. Who cares about more picks. We replenished them last year.
As far as you hockeyfutures guys? Bailey not on list b/c he and okposo are not longer prospects. They are nhlers. Tavares will be removed after 9 more games as well.
Bailey + picks we got will prove more valuable than filatov. Filatov can’t get more than 8 mins icetime on columbus
So let’s not assess snowjanks until a few yrs from now.
As far as campoli. If you can’t thrive in system that gives dman this much freedom than u can’t thrive aware. Grevais post his departure has been way better than he ever was.
Campoli, comrie, and hilbert were plagues. Good riddens.
Campoli is only a top two defenseman in his own mind. On paper this seems like a steep price to pay for deHann but I (nor anyone else commenting here for that matter) was scouting him for months, the Isles scouting team was. They got the guy they wanted. Let’s cross our fingers and trust thier judgement.
#56 - Good point. I hope Petrov actually plays in the NHL!
Surprisingly I will not criticize Snow for the CDH pick. If you look at what the Jets have done in their very recent draft history ( like 3 years) they have traded up for guys they like….example Revis and Harris their 2 best defensive players. They basically traded their draft for these guys and it worked out. Even Keller was a trade up and he looks like a good TE. Point is Snow and scouts really liked CDH. Go get the guy you want instead of settling on a guy and taking 3 JAGS with the 2nd and 3rd rounders
For all you haters . . . De Hann is nasty, just watch him tear it up in the WJCs. Everyone will say, “who has the rights to that kid” and us Islander fans will politely smile and say “we do, man. We do”
I also agree with JPK in Halifax, and with the bunch of guys in that vein. Eh, trading mere picks and prospects doesn’t quite bother me, as if you threw darts at random second, third, and fourth round players in any draft year it would be hard to hit guys who would later become viable NHLers after 3-5 years. If De Haan has higher skills and a higher upside, then why have four more guys that could be less talented and have a much higher chance to wind up undeveloped anyway? The fact that Cal looks great so far is gravy.
…..Well they wanted him and they got him. So far it looks like they might have hit the mark with him.
As for Baily and Filatov. I really like Baily. But I think Filatov is gonna be have the more prolific career.
I really liked Campoli’s game. I know he had problems with Gordon, although it didn’t seem to be affecting his play on the ice as much as one would think. At the end of the day we traded a steady #3 defenseman who can contribute offensively and four draft picks for a kid with a lot of upside and can maybe one day be a great defenseman, perhaps a Mark Streit?
I think keeping Campoli and drafting 4 players would have about the same impact as having De Haan, in all honesty, not much of a difference in my opinion.
Overpaid, underpaid, over evaluated, under evaluated ….all conjecture. What impresses me is that while all that public attention was being paid on the number one pick (Tavares), that pick had already been predetermined. It was the second pick which was really coveted and,right or wrong, they got who they really wanted. They obviously really liked this kid and that desire piques my interest. I’d rather see a decisive move like that then stockpiling for the sake of bodies. So far the impressions have been positive. Let’s trust our scouts and see what happens.
Gervais looked like a man possessed at the last 1/4 of the season…Anyone who disputes that he improved immensely obviously havent been paying attention
CB - notice that most of the responses to this topic are long?
I’d like to add:
A). Perhaps Snow and Company felt that some of those picks were bonus from the Bailey shuffle, therefore making them more expendable
B). “If I were Gm” (here we go) and if I new that I was comfortable giving up so many picks, I would have tried to add next years #1 pick to get the #2 pick overall from Tampa Bay or even the # 3. both organizations would have been tempted to get more talent in the system and this years draft was exceptionally deep.
Who cares about holding onto the first round pick if a). there is no guarantee of getting the #1 pick and b).why wait to get a “possible shot” at a franchise player when you could get a damn good one in this past draft.
Did snow look at what he was to give up for Dehaan overall and did he at least try to see what was needed for another top pick?
On another note, when players are interested in leaving a team one of the big reasons is that they feel the franchise is not doing enough to put the team in position to be a contender. One of the biggest desires for a hockey player (beside the big paycheck) is to get their name on the Cup. Their careers are short. If they sense a franchise is holding back - good bye or put on your best game face but be disgruntled inside.
I hope that we are being realistic and not short-sighted in getting this team to the point of being a contender.
I have always been an Islander fan and always will be unless they move off the Island. But we need to at least try to bring in talent to support the youth movement!
Obviously, Tavares #1. Ideally, the Isles should’ve signed GILROY, taken Jordan SCHROEDER (at #16), & FERRARRO (figures, Detroit knows what they’re doing) With the top pick in the 2nd round. Then, they could’ve easily traded up in the 2nd round with their excess picks and landed the goalie they wanted… THAT, my friends would’ve been a REALISTIC, phenominal way to go.
But, we’re Islanders fans, we’re used to stupidity, but I love them anyway!! (Maybe DeHaan turns out to be great and the goalie ends up being the next Ken Dryden, who knows… too early to make the call on good/bad draft)
Right now, I like my scenerio A LOT better!!
If this is the player the scouts really wanted then it was worth the price. This team needs quality not quantity. de Hann looks good already and will only get better.
Post #14 I am in total agreement with you. I guess you have to compare Bailey/Ness Vs. Nikita Filatov. But sorry, having Tavares/Filatov/Okposo as our core would be amazing….
Im sure DeHaan will be a great player but what we question as fans is why did they trade all over the place to get someone they could have gotten at 26/16? Royal screw up people…
Why do we need 2 offensive defensemen in the league with Dehaan/Ness. Take Ness and Bailey and give me Filatov. How frustrating. Do we have another offensive top level talent in the system? Ahhh NOPE!
I didn’t like the move then so I’m not going to do a 180 and all-of-a-sudden like it now. I still think Garth outsmarted himself and overpaid. But I won’t take it out on de Haan. It’s like last year when he dropped down to take Bailey instead of staying put and taking Filatov. I still don’t like the move but I won’t take it out on Bailey either. I hope both turn out to be great players for the Isles but I’m still weary about Snow’s drafting acumen. Tavares was a no-brainer so that doesn’t count.
All I have to say is thank god Im a Yanks fan…
This is a “wait and see” thing. I just can’t judge this deal fully until we see what de Haan will become. He had an encouraging camp so that says something.
As far as what we gave up—just like others have said—Campoli wanted no part of the Islanders—and as far as other players in the draft we could have taken, or defenseman from college we could have signed as free agents—all of that is moot.
The team is clearly building around Tavares. de Haan alone is not as impactful until you factor in de Haan and the time spent in Oshawa with Tavares.
We will see in 3-4 seasons.
Could’ve, Would’ve, Should’ve. Kassian who crushed de Hann would’ve made a Sweet hatrick as the Isles 3rd pick but was passed over for the name I Can’t recall right now..
As for gilroy, because he’s a nyr & was the captain of the ncaa BU champs, he gets big hype, Time will tell, Yes he’s a good player, but He was pretty much a Developed player/man, playing against kids all 18 - 19, So I’ll save my judgement - To end this, sure I Wish the Isles signed him, Why not get more competition & take a shot at a guy who may have developed late, but enough with his hype…
BTW deHann looks good & I Hope he comes along & since garth felt his guy was gonna be gone, He jumped - Time will tell also& Josh Bailey is & Will be a Sweet set up man who should pot 20goals, filiativ?? Who knows, great talent but seems flaky & for all their talent, the russkies are flaky & rarely driven like ovechkin who only needs to be better defensively to be the BEST NHL’er All round..
Curious post, that really doesn’t make much sense …first, if what we briefly saw from de Haan (poise, maturity, skill, etc.) is any indication, we may have a first pairing dman, and if that’s the case, well worth the price (most of which were third and fourth round selections). Second, of the best player from the trade ends up being de Haan, and that is what is being predicted, then the rest of the post is irrelevant. Third, not sure I understand the comment about “big hits and big busts” in the Isles drafting since 06…I see the hits, but let’s cut them some slack, a “big bust” is a first round bust…has that happened since 06 (Okposo, Bailey, Tavares, de Haan)? In fairness, our drafts have looked pretty good overall, just run through them for yourselves…guess i just don’t get it. what exactly is the hubub about??
I agree 78. I also think it was no sure bet De Haan would have lasted until 26. Drafting 18 year old kids is not as easy as some Fans think. It’s easy to read the Hockey News and say the Isles should have taken this guy or that. I’ll trust the Isles scouts and GM.
tsn.ca did a breakdown of NHL entry level draft picks. the results after the first two rounds wasn’t pretty. the % of guys taken after the second round that have careers of any note in the NHL is STAGGERINGLY small. look it up. you could have wound up with both a top line scorer(tavares) and a top pair defender (hedman, i mean de haan). how anybody can be critical of that result is beyond reason. CB, you were critical of the isles loading up prospects, and not on players. here, we could/should have a pair of impact players from 1 draft.
as for size, its only 1 game, but even this blog has noted the difference in JBaileys build from 1, just 1 season, of NHL diet and strength. JB, like de haan, is still a teenager. with JB,JT,KO and possibly CdH, you have 3 fowards and defender that are young, inexpensive and wearing our jersey. patience fellas. succed with your picks in rounds 1 + 2, and maybe catch lightening in a bottle on occasion with lesser picks, and you’ll be successful. i look foward to thursdays game.
You can rank this year’s draft right up there with some of Milbury’s debacles. Tavares was the only thing Snow did right. From there on it was one bad move after another. Trading up twice to get deHaan and then drafting two goalies in the next 2 rounds is incomprehensible. Luckily for Snow all the attention was on JT, so much of what CB reported was overlooked by the media and Isles fans. Trading down twice last year to get Bailey could also bite Snow in the ass.
don’t you people, who were against moving up, realize some other team wanted him so thats why Snow had to move up. Two years ago people were pissed about moving down, now there mad about them moving up. At least our GM is pro active. I mean we could have a gm like Waddel who does nothing and his team still sucks. Everyone is crying about this Russian filatov. We had two Russians (yashin and Kavasha) for about half a decade and most fans hated them. Sure Filatov is good, but Bailey hasn’t exactly been a slouch either.
CB - I look at it this way …. The Isles got themselves an outstanding defenseman with a future in the NHL. The question will be what kind of future is that?
For the total sum of possible players they could of had the Isles gave up a ton.
The local scout here that scouts Jr. / Bantam players in NJ / NYC area told me to look at it this way… The Isles cashed in some of the chips to basically garauntee that they got the guy they wanted … That it doesn’t matter what the NHL Central scouting thought about him … that there was several teams ahead of the Isles that also so the great potential in deHaan. So Snow rolled the dice and at the same time shed some of the players he’d of had to make an even bigger gamble on. He also told me that the Isles have a large stable of bubble talent players in Jr’s., college and Bridgeport so there are only so many contracts available so there was no way Garth could of had all these players in contract when you take into account next years draft add another potential high draft pick.
You summed it up beautifully 46. I just love how some fans can say a draft was lousy after only 4 months. I would love to see some of these fans become scouts and GM’s. There will be plenty of time to rip these moves down the line if they do not work out. 4 months is a bit early.
So let’s analyze further:
Between picks 12-17, 4 defensemen were chosen (de Haan at 12; Kulikov at 14; Leddy at 16; & Rundblad at 17).
This Isles got aggressive and jumped up from 26 to 16. Let’s say that what CB’s reporting is accurate… that Minn at 12 would have selected Leddy. Let’s say that Kulikov was the Dman that Fla. wanted and they selected him at 14. Who’s to say that the St. Louis Blues and savvy JD wouldn’t have jumped up, right in front of the Isles to the #15 spot, to take de Haan.
Excuse the saying, but Snow would have been left with his **** in his hand with the 16th overall pick and his guy gone.
He did what he had to do to assure himself of landing the guy he wanted.
If you ask me, the 2008 draft put a scare into him. I agree that Bailey was a contingency plan (Plan C) and that he felt the Isles could move back and still land either Filatov or Wilson. He wasn’t about to miss on his guy again and he took the steps necessary to make it happen.
I’m MUCH more tolerable of these 2009 maneuvers than what went on in 2008.
My only problem with the draft this year is taking 2 goalies. I think they should have taken Ferarro instead of Koskinen, especially since they turned around and took another goalie with their next pick.
The 2009 draft after Tavares still drivers me nuts. de Haan would have been there at #26. If not a player just as good would have been there, plus two more players (forward/D-man) at 30 and 37. And I bet if you ask around Koskinen would have been there to start the third round. Snow and Co. over thought it, made stupid trades and we get de Haan and two goalies. Drives me nuts. But WE GOT TAVARES.
Screw Campoli. What does it say about him to having a great opportunity with a rebuilding team and couldn’t cut it and wanted out.
Bye bye Campoli. Hello Calvin.
Can’t turn back the clock and so far so good on de Haan. My only question is why it took so long to do the math on this one? We were having the same discussion the night of the draft at the Coliseum.
This is not a team thats been starved for depth players, muckers, grinders or character guys. This team NEEDS top end talent. Who cares about 3rd or 4th rounders? If Garth thought DeHaan is/was one of the best talents in the draft, I have no problems with what he gave up to grab him.
I didn’t like the deal then and still don’t. This teams needs so many pieces I would have stayed at 26 once they moved to 16 I would have stayed there and kept the 2 3rd rounder they had and look for some d prospects with some size. To give up more and get to #12 I would have taken Zach Kassain and added him to the team. Kassain and Matt Martin now you have some toughness. But they had their eyes on deHaan the whole time just like last year they had their eyes on Bailey and did whatever it took to get him. I think t was a mistake to give up some much for a kid that was ranked #23.
I’m sick of the Zach Kassain argument:
1. the kid’s a headcase
2. toughness can be obtained on the cheap — you don’t draft for toughness with the #12 overall pick
3. the kid can’t skate
4. he’s nothing more than Sean Avery — and not worth a 1st round pick.
The only reason this is an issue is where de Haan was predicted to go by the scouts. Personally, I was shocked to see that he was as good as he was in the pre-season.
I recognize it’s very early, but he showed me a lot more than JT in the pre-season.
I hope deHaan is a top pair d-man. I like Bailey, too, no knock on him, hie is different than Filatov, who if on NYI would be playing top minutes. Being in Ohio and following CBJ too, I can tell you that one reason why he is not play much (even though he DID score in the 7 min he played last game), is because the Jackets are top heavy. For the first time they have more players that could be used on top 2 lines than than spots, therefore Hitchcock has the liberty to play the more experienced players. Jackets have plenty of firepower, his excessive talent is the only reason he even made the team.
I would much rather of had a bunch of other players that draft night, including Dmitri Kulikov or Jordan Schroeder.. But what’s done is done, and I think Calvin DeHaan is a super smart, talented player. I think Calvin DeHaan will be a great #2 defenseman in a few years. I also believe Travis Hamonic will be a great #3 D man.
This is where you and I differ CB.. You say you cannot tell the future… Well I can tell the future… The perfect #1 defenseman is in the 2010 draft and we will get him…. Cam Fowler is the perfect #1 defenseman and will compliment DeHaan and Hamonic greatly… You heard it here first… Fowler, DeHaan and Hamonic will be our future core defensmen… Streit is great for now , but getting up in age, and Aaron Ness is a wild card… Ness has the talent, but will he overcome his size issue…
The future says:
FOWLER, DEHAAN AND HAMONIC!!!!!
I liked what the Isles did in the first round. deHaan had an awesome rookie year and he may have been on some radar screens as two year project with calder Trophy potential. So I’ll give Snow and Jankowski the credit for having the stones to make that happen.
I’m also okay with what they did in the second round. You put Snow like padding on a 6′6″+ goaltender and add the coaching he’ll get in the next two years to the coaching he’s already gotten… He could be something special. (could be)
But why take two goalies in the same draft, then sign 3 more while releasing two capable NHL backups. Plus you have two or maybe three(we never get any info on the last three goalies drafted) prospects in the system already. Are they trying to become a goalie surplus store?
Am and will remain excited about de Haan’s prospects as a future Islander.
I feel, and felt at the moment he was picked, that the Islanders scouting staff had spent so much time looking at de Haan as a POSSIBLE # 26, that they allowed themselves to be blinded by their developed enthusiasm for him, to a certain degree no doubt.
Rationally speaking, when there’s a draft this deep, you just do not trade 4 or 5 picks to ensure you get one particular guy whose not in say the top 5 players in the draft, much less when three of those picks are 1st and 2nd rounders.
I very much feel that from players like Panik, Tatar, and Rajala, much less Palmieri, Olsen and a few others are ultimately going to have good NHL careers and regardless of what comes of de Haan, we’ll always have to wonder why “just” him when we could have had three of the others?
This said, this draft may still give 3 plus NHLers, which is excellent for any draft.
in regards to post #14. I’ve been thinking that for the past few months or so. Having a line with JT, okposo and filatov would’ve been a sight to see. The speed, power and scoring from those 3 is something every coach and GM dream about. I think no matter what, there will always be that connection between the isles, bailey, and filatov. And if Filatov turns out (which I know he will) to be a hell of a lot better then bailey, then that 2008 draft will haunt the isles. Quite possibly in the similar vain as when we passed on parise. Cause filatov should have at least 3 or 4 goals right now if not for a pair of post shots and getting robbed point blank. And as for de Haan, if not for his size he would’ve been taken where the Isles got him. His size was what made scouts sketchy on him. His numbers in juniors don’t lie. If he packs on between 20-30 pounds come next training camp then he will be playing in the NHL for the 2010-2011 season.
Enough with Kassian. Also, I love how some people are so sure deHann would have lasted to 26 or even 16. I guess a whole bunch of you were on the draft floor while the picks were being made?
It’s 4 months people. Let’s give the picks some time eh?
An offer sheet for Phil Kessel would have only been a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks.
Only 23 years old and scored 36 goals last year.
De Haan is worth it! campoli didnt want to be here! and its not like we gave up all these picks to ott for him, we only traded campoli to ott for the pick, trading up was separate!
Please post a new story–it depresses me to no end to see this headline everytime I come back to the site. I like de Haan, but no sane person can argue he’s worth Campoli, a 2nd, two 3rds and a 4th. Ugh.
Looked this up last night…round 1 since 06: Okposo, Bailey, Tavares, de Haan: rounds 2 and 3: joenssu, figren, ness, hamonic, trivino, Petrov, Katic, koskinen….round 4 and beyond notables, Rahkshani, martin, dibenidetto, kessel, ulstrom…. So, what exactly are we complaining about? Still don’t get it. Why must we always be so damn negative?
First off, Campoli didn’t want to be here. Snow also made many nice picks from the 2008 draft, but most are 2nd tier talents. I think he was looking for that top tier talent to lead our defense into the future. In my opinion, we gave up a little too much for de Hann, but there is logic to his madness, unlike the real mad man, Milbury.
In any other year, I’d say yes to Kessel and an offer sheet. But I think we may be staring at another top 5 pick…. and as a result, “hell no”. No way is Kessel worth a top 5 pick (and potential lottery winner)++.
Im really excited about de Haan. He looked great in preseason. All you complainers need to stop already. The kid looked great skating the puck out of the zone and his first passes were spot on every time. He will be quarterbacking our PP in the future and should be. He is going to bea great player. Initially I was skeptical when Snow made this move but after seeing him play a few preseaosn games, I am now very content.
I am not worried about what could have been with mid round picks…Campoli is a 5-4 defensean this year with Ottawa, a team mind you that will likely not make the playoffs…. De Hann has the potential to be a top 2-3 D-man…I like our odds, but this can only be judged in 5 yrs from now, when we see where the draft choices we traded away are at, and where De Hann is at. Campoli, will never be a top 4 D-man, anywhere.
Great article CB. Only time will tell!
Just because people disagree with Snow doesn’t mean they are negative. Everyone had their preference with who they wanted Snow to pick and everyone has their opinion on Snow’s moves. I don’t have to love everything he does, and it doesn’t stop me from rooting for the team and being positive about the players we have. For a team that finished last in the league and has the spectre of moving over their heads, I think the fans have been pretty positive on the whole and stuck by the team.
a good and fair article, but seemsa bit of a downer, no?
we draft on non-hockey factors much more heavily now than in the past, character and intelligence are important factors now —
speaking of which; congrats to rhett rakhshani who was named 1 of 20 finalists for the Lowe’s Senior C.L.A.S.S. award
who cares if they gave up a bunch of 2nd-4th round picks, you can find guys like that anywhere, they wanted to get a potential top 4 nhl dman, we’ve had enough 3rd round prospects around here the last 10 years so what
“Are they trying to become a goalie surplus store?”
snow not only take care of the immediate goaltending need but literally built a stable of goalies he can use as chips later when the rest of the team is coming together. having a surplus of goalies is like having a surplus of starting pitchers. if the 2 kid goalies he grabbed develop, in a couple of years he’ll have multiple pieces with more value than draft picks to play with, and plenty of options. the debate about the dehaan move is beyond me, i guess how good dehaan gets will decide it. but i think snow was wise and did a great job on the goalie situation.
Someone mentioned CB’s take on Bailey v Filatov. No thanks. Enough of the postulating of the picks that never happened to somehow validate the picks that did. Bailey and Filatov are completely different kinds of players, how do you assess who is better? By goals? By assists? By points? By +/-? Do you compare centermen like Yzerman to scorers like Bure (before he was a Rag) and then say one is better than the other? I’m just picking names here. They serve different roles on their teams.
Bailey is a great character guy that will give 110% all the time and continue to get stronger and improve. This is the the culture that is being created. We dont want anyone that does not fit in this mold. Filatov has questionable character and work ethic.
Campoli’s a third pair guy, de Haan could be a top pair guy. Third pair guys are a dime a dozen, you can sign them for $600K nearly every off-season. Besides which, Campoli was a seventh-rounder whom we got better-than-expected play from.
So, that first-rounder he got from Ottawa/San Jose was really a 7th-round pick once upon a time. Snow got a couple of years of credible play out of it, and then flipped it in part for de Haan. Further, a lot of what he gave away came to us in the Bailey trade. CB’s math is correct but not entirely complete… add in the gains from the ‘08 draft, much of which helped this move possible, and it looks more like this:
Campoli, Filatov, a two, two threes, a four
for
Bailey, de Haan, #40 in ‘08 (they took Aaron Ness), #66 (?) in ‘08 (they took David Toews, meh).
Bailey and de Haan are a better pair than Campoli and Filatov. Ness just has to be better than any of the other three (G Anders Nilsson, CLB; G David Hackett, MIN; RW Cameron Abney, EDM) to make all of that a net gain for the Isles… and that’s apart from anything they get from the projects they were able to draft in ‘08 and ‘09 that they could not have risked without the extra picks (Petrov in ‘08, Cizikas in ‘09).
** a confusing note… the Isles dealt #92 overall in ‘09, but the draft chart says they took Cizikas there. The Jackets had the #94, but the draft chart says “via Colorado.” I am puzzled, but Cizikas is an Islander, so I’m not sure where that fourth rounder came from.
Comrie? too much way 2 much, look at the d we passed on for bailey…..
Each pick affects who else you take so you can’t just determine one pick’s value on its own. The possibilities are endless, would the Islanders be better with Filatov/Hedman/Kassian or Bailey/Tavares/DeHaan? Time will tell, I just hope they aren’t trying to be too smart.
With all due respect, I think you are way too hard on this trade. If this is the player that the Islanders wanted, and they wanted him that badly, I can’t consider what they gave up as “too much”. Based on what I saw in pre-season (1 game), I liked what I saw of him. He’s very poised and patient with the puck. He didn’t show any particular speed, but he did remind me of Paul Coffey minus the speed. He can keep the puck on his stick, deke oncoming traffic, and ultimately get the puck either out of the zone or on a teammate’s stick. If the player is part of something great, then it was well worth what they’ve done.
#85, don’t forget that Ryan Ellis went 11th. The Islanders made the trade immediately AFTER that selection. The Islanders must have felt some urgency, and I can appreciate that. Sure, de Haan could have been there at 14th, 15th, or 16th, but the Islanders felt strongly about this player and didn’t want to risk it. Ultimately, I view this as a good move. You can not assume that a player is going to last until 26th because THN Draft Preview says so. In 1991, Peter Forsberg was ranked 24th or so, and wasn’t quite as skilled as Markus Naslund. I’ll dig up that preview and get back to you on it. In the mean time, chew on that one.
I like this deal for several reasons. First I liked that Garth was bold, he knew who he wanted, and got him. How much did the scouts see de Haan play alongside Tavares, see chemistry, and have that influence their pick?
Man…people love to complain.
I saw a show about Marty B. Lou Lamarillo said they were not geniuos’ for taking Marty. It was good fortune that Kidd was taken ahead of him. He said if he knew then how good Marty would be hw would still trade anything to move up. And that’s from the guy who stepped in SHT that day!!!
“’Im no hockey expert, but until proven otherwise, I continue to believe our hockey brain trust resembles the Pirates more than the Penguins.” -Merrick 10/7 post # 39
Ouch.
Another awesome article Chris but this one stings.
Added pressure on de Haan, he looked possibly blue chip, but hey . we’re the islanders so we have given away olli jokinen, roberto luongo AND (dany heatley or marian gaborik) for mark parrish and oleg kvasha.
It actually brings me tears.